Cathy Walker

Doug Miller 00:03

Okay, good morning. Kathy Walker in Surrey, BC, is what I understand. And here with Jane Armstrong in Toronto and Ken Luckhardt in Toronto. I'm Doug Miller from Montreal, and we're part of the Canadian Anti-Apartheid Activist History Project, and Ken and Jane, in particular, are interested in the SAC to solidarity work from that period, and so we'd like to interview you, and we sent you a consent form that indicates your willingness to participate, and you understand its condition. So, if you could just affirm verbally that you've read it and you agree to be interviewed.

Cathy Walker 00:41

Yes, I read the consent form on I agree to be interviewed.

Doug Miller 00:44

Okay, lovely, lovely. I usually start with just a very broad question. If you could just give us a little bit of your own personal history, your own little back, your background in short, and how you got into a unionism and be anti-apartheid work,

Cathy Walker 01:02

Well, I grew up a working-class kid in Burnaby, which is a suburb of Vancouver. I went to SFU and got involved in the student movement and the women's movement, and then started working in factories in the greater Vancouver area got involved in the union that way, and at that time it was the early 70s, so there was lots of opportunity for growth, you know. There was a huge fight-back by working people across the country, and certainly in the greater Vancouver area, and the union expanded from one plant to 40, you know, not quite overnight, but within a few short years. Then I came on as a full-time local president, and then eventually as a national representative with my former union, Canadian Association of Industrial, Mechanical, and Allied Workers, that eventually merged with the CAW in 1992 then I went east,

Doug Miller 02:06

And so through your unionism, is that how you became introduced to the issues of apartheid in Southern Africa?

Cathy Walker 02:15

Well, I think through the student movement there was certainly an awareness, but in terms of actually talking to people who were completely involved in the South African situation, that was definitely through you at a university, where, of course, preoccupied with the anti-Vietnam War movement, that was probably our main international focus at that time, and you know, opposing, you know, United Fruit in Central America and Latin America, you know, that sort of thing, but I don't recall doing much in the way of anything with about Africa at that time.

Doug Miller 03:00

Okay, so it's and then during the union I can't remember that long acronym, but

Cathy Walker 03:08

Oh yeah, if you say KMAL, which some people said was K Mao, because we were a lot of us sort of Maoists at the time came on this works

Doug Miller 03:25

Anyway, so there you are in the union, and now you, I guess, eventually meet SACTU solidarity committee somehow. Do you have any recollection of how that all came about?

Cathy Walker 03:38

Well, how that happened, I don't know. It was definitely at their initiative. It was people like Ken and Jane. I'm trying to remember if I met you and Ken Traynor around that time, you know. I'm just.. I have a dim memory. Fortunately, Ken and Jane are much more adept at dredging out memories than I do, but you know it's sort of then when you run into people you know years later, sort of like, oh yeah, how do I know this person? Right, right, oh yeah, support work, so you know, was that their initiative getting in touch with us in the union. Certainly, I didn't do anything to reach out to them.

Doug Miller 04:27

Ken, do you have any recollection of your first meeting?

Ken Luckhardt 04:30

Early, well, we were formed in 1980 so first major tour of BC was in 1981 and I remember then being invited back on many occasions to the CAIMAW Hall, whether it would be Saturday workshops, various union educational programs. That's when I met Kathy. I can almost remember doing that. Big memories are indeed very, very vague. But it was at the CAIMAW hall that I first met you, Cathy, and we, you know, we did the presentations. We always got a good response from Sergey Moore and the entire CAIMAW membership and activist crew, and so that then took off from their CCU functions, also, of course.

And so I have a vague recollection, I may be totally wrong in this. Did we find a connection between Weiser Lock, your employer, and South Africa? I have this something in back of my head saying, you know, our researcher came across something. Do you recall anything about that?

Cathy Walker 05:28

Um, could, could be. I'm afraid if you remember WeiserLock, you probably, there probably was some sort of connection, but no, I don't remember the details of that at all, unfortunately. No, what I do remember is you coming and speaking at the CAIMAW Hall any number of times, and you were absolutely spellbound me. You know, just one of the best speakers that I'd ever heard, and I remember I'm not much of an evening person at the best of times, and of course the meetings were nearly all in the evening, but boy, you know, I never nodded off. I was just absolutely captivated, and just learned so much. Yeah, it was great, and everybody in the room was the same thing. I mean, you didn't have, you know, shuffling of chairs or people looking at notes, or you know, any side discussions. I mean, people were just absolutely captivated.

Ken Luckhardt 06:30

Well, as I said during the interview with Jeff Keithley and Laurel and John Lang, we never had to deal with the same politics when we dealt with the CCU that we had to deal with terms of the CLC affiliates, that's an important, important distinction to make. Back in those days, the CCU didn't have to worry about Cold War union politics and its own position, and that was so much appreciated by people like ourselves, who would go to BC and meet all the CCU affiliates, and know that we're going to have to talk about, you know, cold war politics, it was quite refreshing.

Doug Miller 07:03

Cathy, how do you, what do you credit that to?

Cathy Walker 07:08

Oh, the lack of cold war politics.. well, was the consequence of us forming an independent Canadian union. I mean, we deliberately broke away from. in my case, you know, the first union that people broke away from here in BC was the IBEW, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and in their constitution, for example, it said you could not be a member of their union if you supported fascism, communism, or any other subversive ism that literally was their constitution, so it was, and we definitely didn't want to be part of an American-based union. It was again part of the, I think, the anti-imperialist struggle and formed a Canadian union, which was completely independent of not just the IBEW, but all sorts of other American unions, and of course, the so-called House of Labour, Canadian Labour Congress, and BC Federation of Labour. We were not part of those organizations, so we're free, free to take decent positions on all sorts of issues, certainly including South Africa. We didn't have to worry about what those other guys thought or what the federal government thought, we could just do the right thing.

Doug Miller 08:35

That's a very interesting perspective, and a tribute to all those folks that led that movement towards independent union, Canadian unionism. Jane?

Jane Armstrong 08:50

Two things. Kathy, do you remember any of the South Africans that we brought to CCU conventions or to the West Coast, speaking, and how people responded.

Cathy Walker 09:09

Yeah, I remember both Peter Mahlangu and Buffalo Yanga, who we understand that was not his real name. Eventually we found that out. I can't remember what his real name is, but that's what we do, a mess, and they were also spellbinding speakers, and I remember just being fascinated, and you know, like with Ken, they could talk at length in an incredibly interesting, fascinated way, fascinating way, and they didn't have notes, you know, they never, they never looked at a piece of paper, and they could just go on for such a long time. I remember just being thinking that was absolutely marvelous, and so did everybody else in the room. It was, it was a wonderful experience, you know, and remember, you know, that was, we still didn't have a lot of Black people in general, even in the Vancouver area, you know, we're just getting over, you know, racist immigration policies, I mean, not that we have a huge number now, it's not nothing like Montreal, for example, but you know it was great, you know, these guys coming and speaking to us about the situation in South Africa, and people were just absolutely captivated. It was, it was terrific.

Doug Miller 10:35

And how did, how did that interest manifest itself as commitment and action on the part of the unions.

Cathy Walker 10:47

Well, I think the most well, there were two really fun things that I got to be involved in as a result of all of this, and one is I was a national representative looking after the workers and our local 12 came on local 12, and that was the Shelburne oil refinery workers. So, needless to say, there, here's this campaign to, you know, boycott Shell, and the Shell workers were saying, look, you know, we can't exactly support a boycott of Shell, because you know this is where we work, and we can't really boycott Shell, so what can we do? Because we've got to knock this issue on the head.

So we decided that we would make a bargaining proposal, because we're in negotiations to that Shell should no longer import any product from South Africa into Canada, and at that stage I think there was only, I don't know, some kind of plastic or something that was coming in, or fee stock for plastic or something, so it was, it was sort of a symbolic thing, but an important thing to keep the issue on the table, and of course, one thing about Shell, I mean, they're all into this nonsensical sort of, you know, “we're really your best friend, you know, and we don't believe in these confrontational, you know, negotiations, and you know, we're going to listen to you”, and you know all of this stuff, so we, you know, would go on at length about shellers in South Africa, and had a great opportunity to do so, and they would just sit there and bite their tongues and listen.

And the irony of it was the guy who was the plant manager, who was the refinery manager in charge of negotiations, that's where he was from, and I can't remember if he was born, I think it was, might have been born in Zimbabwe, but, but basically lived in South Africa, and had been working for Shell there, so needless to say, he knew all this stuff intimately, and he just had to sort of sit there and take it, and you know, people were saying, you know, eventually, how are we going to get an agreement, you know, because obviously Shell was, you know, they might have to, to listen to us, and you know, watch videos about it, and, and you know, you know, put up with us, you know.

I said, “well, we're never taking it off the table, you know, if it doesn't show up in the final offer that people vote on well, fair enough, but we're not taking it off the table”. And everybody was completely supportive of that. We had a great local executive, so that, that was, that was really, that was a lot of fun, and you know, you can, you know, write articles in the union newsletter about it, and you know, talk about it at local meetings about what we were doing. We always had really good support.

Doug Miller 13:51

That's a really privileged access to the mother load of capital and all that. You can confront them so directly and bring it up. Normally, we have to stand on the sidewalk in front of a gas station. That's amazing. Ken, Jane, I'm needing help here because I'm not so familiar with the BC scene or CCU or K1?

Jane Armstrong 14:21

Cathy, were you also national rep with some of the mines? I'm just trying to remember, or was it via health and safety that you got involved with mine mill and some of the others? I have this vague recollection.

Cathy Walker 14:36

Yeah, I represented as a national rep, mines in BC, and in terms of health and safety, yeah, I looked after came on in terms of health and safety across the country, but of course came all only went as far as Manitoba, but within the CCU had an opportunity to, you know, speak at conferences and that sort of thing, and certainly did at my mill and Sudbury as well.

Jane Armstrong 15:05

Okay, okay. You worry about your memory, I mean, the rest of us are all pretty, especially the 1980s It seemed like, you know, you were just in the struggle 24/7 in one form or another.

Cathy Walker 15:25

Yeah.

Jane Armstrong 15:26

Do you also remember? I don't know when exactly you were president of your local and then became a national rep, but do you remember in the earlier years in the 1980s Zola Zembe coming out because we took him on tour out in 81, I think it was.

Cathy Walker 15:48

Wait, yes. Thank you for reminding me about that. Yes, I do remember that, and I was, yeah, I started in 74 as the full-time local president, I started in factories in 70, so I, and I was a national rep from, I don't know, 75 on, so yeah, no, I remember him, yeah, well, again, you get reminded of names and such, and speakers. and, oh, yeah, what about you?

Jane Armstong 16:20

Yeah, and then in 80, 86 was it 86 or 85 that we did the week of action? And there were actions down in the shipyards in Vancouver, I mean, the postal workers refused to handle mail, the airline workers refused to book flights, etc. Telephone workers were not taking calls. I mean, there were all sorts of actions, whatever people could do in their workplaces. Do you remember any of that? It was mid 80s.

Cathy Walker 17:00

Well, in not in terms of me or our union, we didn't really, apart from Shell, we didn't have sort of that connection, although, as Ken says, maybe with Wiser Locke. I'm sorry, I don't remember any relationship with Weiser, but maybe they had a facility in South Africa, but it was an American company, and they certainly could have. So I, you know, I remember, you know, the week of action, but I don't remember participating or doing anything in it.

Jane Armstong 17:34

Oh, right.

Cathy Walker 17:35

Yeah. And again, that might have just been me, maybe I was, you know, again, I could have been out of town servicing our mine locals, then, because there was an awful lot of time spent in Northern BC and Central BC doing that too.

Jane Armstrong 17:50

Yeah, okay, all right.

Ken Luckhardt 17:53

We all just lost Jess Succomor recently. How important was it to have a really progressive president of KMA and activist within the CCU executive to help this work move forward.

Cathy Walker 18:06

Oh, very important. Yeah, Jess was secretary treasurer of the CAIMAW and you know, in a lot of respects, we were more like the British structure, so he was really the kingpin of the organization, and he was always really progressive and supportive, and if he hadn't been, it would have been very, you know, difficult, not impossible, certainly, but difficult to move a progressive agenda ahead, but he was always supportive, and you know, when, when Jef Keighley was doing SACTU support work, you know, I mean, that was great, you know, in another organization, somebody might have said, "Oh, you're far too busy, you know, negotiating contracts, we can't have you off doing that kind of work”, but he was, he was just always supportive, which was terrific.

And in his role in the CCU, and I think he really provided leadership there as well, because not all the CCU unions, while they were great, obviously on the independent Canadian union issue, they weren't always necessarily as progressive on other social issues or political issues, so he really, he stood out there in front, and I think it really helped bring everybody along.

Doug Miller 19:31

You brought up from the period of your student days that you were there, was a lot of action around Vietnam and Central and South America, it at the union level I'm wondering, was there a spillover from the international solidarity across the line more or less to other countries and other situations, and also in terms of relations with our Indigenous population, and for that matter, the role of women in the union, and those kinds of struggles.

Cathy Walker 20:07

Well, in terms of international work, there was probably not a CAIMAW convention or a CCU convention or a BC Council of a CCU convention where we didn't pass at least one resolution in solidarity with workers somewhere, and you know it often tended to be more, you know, Central America, or whatever, because you know there was sort of some relationship.

But you know people were always encouraged to, you know, to go to demonstrations in support of workers elsewhere, and fights, I mean, that was, you know, I remember attending some fairly TC demonstrations, but you know, we'd be there anyway with our signs, and sent delegations to various places, you know, I went to Nicaragua in 86 for example, and that was great.

Now, anytime we went anywhere else, we paid for it ourselves. The union never paid for any of this. It was one of those things that you could never see any of these things as a boondoggle, you know, it had to be committed to doing it, and, and around that time, CUSO had a project in Mozambique, and Ken Hansen, who was the president of our Foundry Local, went over and did some health and safety work there, and eventually stayed there, so that was that was great too, and later on did some, some other work with Mozambique as well.

Ken Luckhardt 21:50

Cathy, your passion for China certainly exceeds or matches our passion for South Africa, up to including this day. How would you discuss or assess international solidarity work now, as compared with the time we're talking about in the 80s from the labor movement?

Cathy Walker 22:09

Oh, with China. Well, first time I went to China was in 74 and fortunately I was able to get time off work. I was working at Phillips Cables at the time, and that was a young workers delegation from Vancouver as part of the Canada-China Friendship Association, and at that time, I mean, they'll say now that was part of the cultural revolution.

Well, you know, it was over, but we're still very inspired by, you know, a socialist China, and you know that whole different road, and then, and then, of course, Deng Xiaoping took over in 78 so I basically didn't do anything with China for a long time, and then, then 91 our former interpreter was who'd been with us in 74 and he came over for several visits, was in Ottawa, he was actually the ambassador at the time, and he really said, “listen, you should go back to China”. I was there with my son at the time, and you know, to see how things have changed, and I thought, "Oh, darn it, you know, Colonel really needs to see”. He was 11 at the time, he really needs to see a country where everybody's not as well off as us, and why not go to China?

So, so we did, and didn't do any union work, either. I had one meeting with one fellow, and then nothing much happened until, you know, the very early 2000s and then delegations started coming over from China, from the All China Federation, or trade unions, and of course, that was all in the context of China joining the WTO, and they said, "Holy cow, you know, this is capitalism of the law, and this isn't just a little bit of Dong Xiaoping, this is a whole different kettle of fish. We better figure out, you know, what it is you guys do”.

And at first, you know, I sort of thought, well, is there any point, you know, under these guys, you know, are they really unions? I met with Stephen Endicott, you know, who was James Endicott's son, and very, you know, lived in China and was very much somebody who understood China. I said, you know, “is there any point in talking to these guys, you know, why should you know, is anybody really listening, or are they just coming over here on the trip?”. And he said, “listen, you know, if you don't talk to people, you know, how are they ever going to learn about what's different, you know, what you do in terms of how you organize workers, you know, how you negotiate collective agreements, how you represent people at the on the shop floor, you know, because their only experience has been under, you know, a previous structure where you know the union helped to promote production and have model workers, and you know was building a socialist China”.

Now things have changed, so, so, at any rate, so I did a lot of that. First, you know, as part of the CAW, because I was in Ontario at the time, and then later on here with the Vancouver District Labor Council and BC Federation of Labor, there have been tons of delegations come through, and I've always done my best to try and make sure that people had presentations to them, so that they would understand, you know, what we do. It's not sort of, you have to do it this way, but this is what we do, and take from it what you make.

Now, of course, with the incredible amount of China bashing, boy, it is an uphill battle to even think about communication, let alone what we might say. You know, I just, I find it actually staggering the way people are just snapping right back into Cold War stuff, of you know, we shouldn't have anything to do with these guys, you know, they're all run by the Communist Party, and you know it's not a real Communist Party, and you know, so we shouldn't have anything to do with them, and it just is sort of a pale but awful reflection of Canadian foreign policy, which is, you know, China is the biggest threat in the world right now. If you think Putin's bad, just wait till China starts invading other countries and such.

So it's been, it's been tough, you know. We had, you know, Kent Wong from the UCLA Labor Center, and he gave a talk, and people, you know, it's interesting, people saw it as really defensive, and he was, but you know, a lot of the stuff he was saying is similar stuff, you know, “you got to talk to these guys if they're ever going to have any opportunity for change”, and you know, when we did, you know, certainly in the 2000s and into the last time I was actually there was 2015 but they've been delegations through since, you know, it's interesting to see how much effect it does have on the Chinese unions, you know, they started, the Beijing people were really very enthusiastic about electing workplace union leadership rather than just being appointed by the party.

There were organizing drives at Walmart that started from, you know, as we would do it, signing workers up rather than going in and telling the boss they have to have a union, and a lot of, you know, a lot of quite progressive stuff, and you know, and being introduced to people in very sheet workplaces, where they actually did already elect their, their bargaining committee and their union leadership, and such.

So, you know, at this stage I just sort of think, holy cow, I mean, I know they're not coming over here as delegations because of Covid, but you know when they do start to gain, I sure hope that we just don't have to build it all right from the bottom again. There'll be some interest on the part of some people in the union movement to at least talk to these guys, because if they don't have any positive examples, what are they going to do? You know, come here and go sightseeing, you know, or talk to the bosses, you know. I mean, that's what they were starting to do, talking to the Ministry of Labor people, because they would talk to them, and talking to employers' organizations, because they would talk to them, it was, it was, you know, a real bit of a persuasion issue to try and get unions to talk to them, but I think it really improved their work a lot and helped them out a lot when we did.

Doug Miller 29:17

Wow, thank you for that. Thank you for that. Well, Ken, Jane, have you got any other issues or questions you'd like to bring up?

Jane Armstrong 29:28

No, Although, Kathy, I remember to remember you working to become fluent in Mandarin. She's self-taught

Doug Miller 29:42

Amazing.

Cathy Walker 29:43

It was a pretty pathetic attempt, but, but I did take up for a few years. Yeah,

Ken Luckhardt 29:50

I would pick up on one thing, Kathy, you said you wrote articles for your local newspaper, local union paper. Part of this project is to collect. Documentation of the solidarity work that we generated, or that we helped to facilitate. Would you possibly still have access to any of the things that you wrote about South Africa or SACTU work?

Cathy Walker 30:14

For sure, I do not have any direct access at all. I don't have any of those union newsletters. There's two places, there may be some one is Jess Sakamore, may have squirreled these away in boxes, his daughter is still quite, I guess, upset about his passing, I mean, even though he was in poor health, at the end, you know, it was sort of… he went into the hospital, and everybody thought he was going to come home and have a period of palliative care, and instead he died that night, and so she was pretty devastated, you know, he'd been living with her since, since Grace died, his wife, and so that is certainly a possibility, and I will get in touch with Sandra and ask her if I've already said kind of help with stuff, but, but I'll be specific about that.

Ken Luckhardt 31:12

That would be very good.

Jane Armstrong 31:13

Theoretically possible that there is some of that in special collections at UBC, possibly. possibly I tend to think Jef Keighley might have a better handle on that than me.

Ken Luckhardt 31:32

Yeah, we talked to, we talked to Jeff and Laurel and John Lang about all that, so yeah, yeah.

Cathy Walker 31:38

Would have been in our, our well, no, by 80, certainly we would have John Bowman with the Kmart review, right? So he may also, and he has a very good memory too, so he may have actually kept all of those.

Jane Armstrong 32:02

I’ve spoken to John Bowman, and all of it is at UBC, as far as I know. So, hopefully we might be able to get Ken Traynor, who lives out on the West Coast, at some point to go and take a look at what's in the collection of, you know, newspapers and paraphernalia, and maybe take images of articles that related to that period.

One thing we have found, which has spurred us on, shall we say, with this project, is that what Doug referred to had has been written by academics and articles, with rare exceptions, some in Canadian Dimension, etc. Most of it barely mentions the trade union movement, and almost without exception, they didn't talk to any trade unionists when they wrote about the trade union movement, and so there's a lot of inaccuracy, or they would mention a couple of paragraphs in a whole book about Canadian anti-apartheid work; there might be a page or two on the trade union movement.

So it's kind of spurred us on, because we know how much happened coast to coast, and trying to find where that has gotten documented has been a bit of a challenge, but Jeff did send a package just recently off to us. We have a collection point, and we're planning on doing another deposit with whatever photographs and other materials we can collect this fall, along with about – we've done about 15, I'm guessing, of these oral histories, which we are also depositing, so we're working away at it, but it's a bit of a detective story trying to locate,

Doug Miller 34:12

If you do have that chance, Cathy, it would be much appreciated if you could talk with your friend and try to 0

Jane Armstrong 34:18

Especially with Sandra.

Doug Miller 34:20

Not to pressure, it's not pressure at all. We, but, but the trick with the Library and Archives Canada is that it come through this little sort of collective we've got going here, the SACTU Solidarity Committee alumni, we're calling them, because they're registered with all these documents at Library and Archives Canada, but if somebody sends them individually, they get registered to Doug Miller or Cathy Walker, or whoever you know. So we appreciate it if you could help us with, and it can be photocopies and whatever you know from your phone, even JPEG.

Cathy Walker 35:01

I will do that for sure.

Jane Armstrong

Yeah, all right. Terrific.

Doug Miller 35:05

I want to say thank you on my behalf, and I'm sure Ken and Jane can do it on their own as well. But I think it was great to hear these stories, and the analysis is bringing the picture into a much bigger scene, as Jane says, we realize how important the unions are, but how underrated their efforts were. So, it's great to get these stories. And thank you so much for your contribution.

Cathy Walker 35:36

Can I tell you one more story?

Doug Miller 35:38

Oh, absolutely, please. Come out when we turn off the record button.

Cathy Walker 35:44

This is when we're so I'm in Ottawa, and I'm there for meetings, health and safety meetings, and this is 1990 so we're not actually in the CLC yet, but things are thawing a little bit, so they would let me show up for health and safety and meetings when we're talking about important issues. So this time I decide, okay, I'm going to take my son, because he's never been to Ottawa, he was 10 at the time, and you know there's interesting places for him to see, and I can't remember if I was staying with Patty Deline, or, you know, I can't quite remember the details, but anyway, she might have wound up looking after him when I was at meetings, so we're meeting, of course, we went over and had our session with the Chinese ambassador, where he suggested we go to China, which we did the following year.

But the other thing that happened is that was when Nelson Mandela came to Canada for the first time, and we went out to the airport, Carl and I, because I said, "Listen, you know this is, you know, the chance of a lifetime”. I said, “I don't know if we'll even get a glimpse of him”, but we took the bus out, and of course we get there, and there's like 10 million people. Well, not, I exaggerate, but there was a whole lot of people, even though it had not been well advertised, and Connell had on this great T-shirt, which he actually wore, sort of as a to bed at night, because it was enormous, and it had this huge picture of Nelson Mandela on the front, so we're way at the back, of course, we can't see a darn thing.

So I said to Carl, I said, listen, you know, they'll let a little kid wiggled their way to the front. They said, you know, I can't get through, but you just go through and say, “excuse me, excuse me, just go through the front, and you'll be able to see what's going on”. So, you know, who, who it is, who does he see? Of course, you know, the Prime Minister shakes his hand, that was more worried.

And then Joe Clark shakes his head, says, "How? This is how he reports to me afterwards. Said, "How are you?’. And Connell, before he could answer, Joe Clark just moves on. And then Nelson Mandela shakes his hand, and of course he's quite pleased to see this little kid with this enormous t-shirt on with his picture on it, and then Winnie Mandela is next, and says, you know, “oh, and how are you”, and he was able to summon the courage to say, “well, I'm fine, thank you”, because she stood there and listened to his answer, and that was his story, which, of course, I didn't see any of this. I mean, this was all happening way in front, and it was only when the crowd finally dispersed, and we found each other again, that he told me all of this.

And you know, I mean, it was all this great SACTU work. I'm sure I would have never had this great T-shirt if it wasn't for SACTU, and it was just one of those experiences he'll remember his whole life, and it was just such a great opportunity, and one of those things that you know, just a lovely memory. Now you can say thank you, Doug, yes, just a real treat, real treat to remedy.

Doug Miller 39:23

Oh I bet you those memories are very much alive for him.

Cathy Walker 39:28

Yeah, they are for sure.

Ken Luckhardt 39:30

Yeah, great to see you, Kathy. Keep well.

Cathy Walker 39:32

Okay, lovely to see you guys too. Yeah,

Doug Miller 39:36

Okay.

Cathy Walker 39:37

Thanks very much.

Doug Miller 39:38

Have a good day.