David Beer

DOUG MILLER

DOUG MILLER 00:00

here's about three minutes that are where we were fiddling. I think that was the wrong visit. I missed. I messed that up. So

DOUG MILLER 00:07

I got there's, there's the visit of the lights on

DOUG MILLER 00:13

this one like some. So, David Beer, you understand that this is the Canadian anti-apartheid history activist history project and that we're going to record you and, and that we asked you to both do the interview and to allow us to use the interview and its contents for public purposes later on to explain the nature of that time in that period and what was going on? Sure, I'm

DAVID BEER 00:43

Sure, I'm happy to do that.

DOUG MILLER 00:44

Okay. Would you mind start by introducing yourself your name, where you come from how you got involved in Africa in the first place?

DAVID BEER 00:53

Well, my name is David Beer. I'm a twin. There's a Charles Beer, but he's not here. I come from Newmarket, Ontario, where I went to a Quaker boarding school called Pickering College, where my father was the headmaster for 25 years. So I was influenced by the thinking and ideas around Quakerism, which of course was a liberal open frame of religious views, although we don’t associate the quakers as being very religious. I finished up with there and went to U of T for three years. When I was 18, when I finished grade 13 at Pickering, a momentous thing in my life, I went to British Guiana, which was a British colony in Latin America, it was more of Caribbean culture, with my English teacher and another Canadian and we were for two or three months, I can’t quite remember. I learnt about British colonialism, about racism, about prejudice, about economic exploitation, and all of those evils. Growing up in Ontario in the 1950s, you didn’t know much about it. Out of that trip, I was about to go to varsity for the first year, out of that trip, we wanted to form an organization that would send young Canadians to places like BG, we were speaking of the Caribbean, and offer whatever we could to help out because folks were so poor. It was a pretty basic and naive humanitarian view of life then. But in fact it happened, at U of T, we did form an organization called the Canadian Voluntary Commonwealth Service (CVCS). I ended up after three years at U of T going to Jamaica as a CVCS volunteer. CVCS and another organization at varsity called COV, Canadian Overseas Volunteers, they formed along with a dozen other Canadian NGOs, non-government organizations, which became CUSO, the largest volunteer organization in Canada.

DOUG MILLER 3:59

Canadian Universities Service Overseas.

DAVID BEER 4:03

CUSO was that, it kept that name until they grew away from the campus and started recruiting Canadians across the country, regardless of what, as long as they were skilled. Those early years began to, for me, what I wanted to do in life, that was to work in international development and then I was there in Jamaica for one year, but I was attracted to the idea of going to Africa. My old friend Guy Arnold, was working with Kenneth Kaunda, about to be prime minister of Zambia, asked the CUSO so it was then called not CVCS, if volunteers could come to the Zambia Youth Service Well, I had when working with the Jamaica Youth Corps, and then I went to the Zambia Youth Service, same groups of young men who are poorly educated, etc. We're learning Leadership and Learning Community skills and learning that craft.

DOUG MILLER 05:31

What year is this?

DAVID BEER 05:32

This would be 1960 64. Zambia became independent in October 24, 1964. And I went, I was a leadership training officer at the ZYS as well, of course, living in Northern Rhodesia for a couple of months that was about to become Zambia. It was it was part of the old Rhodesia and Nyasaland. And white rule in Rhodesia remained. Well, the new Zambia and the new Malawi became independent. But of course, there were scars and a lot of memories about the colonial period. And that's when I first met the ANC in 1965.

I was having a weekend down in Lusaka from where I was working in Broken Hill in the middle of Zambia and met some young South Africans. And I don't know that I'd met any South Africans. So they, they invited me to a party at the house in the southern South of Lusaka. Which was very nice. I mean, they, they knew I wasn't a Boer, I wasn't a white, South African, this strange Canadian. So I went there. And it was the place where, it was a hostel for South Africans, exiles that the ANC made to support them in Lusaka before they would go home at some point. And that that, then I was learning all the time. And that was fantastic. And then I began to know some Zimbabweans from the Zimbabwe African People's Union, and Zimbabwe African National Union. So my, my life included, knowledge and then slowly a commitment to talking about and saying, when I get back to Canada, I want to tell people about it.

Well it was also those days CUSO was growing in Africa. And of course, there were volunteers being sent to many, many countries. But they're in southern Africa, we were in Malawi, Zambia is soon, Botswana, Mozambique. All of those frontline states were affected in one way by the wars that were going on the Portuguese in Mozambique and Angola. And the war in Namibia, South West Africa, South Africans occupying. So, so we, we didn't just think we were sitting in Zambia. There was the Rhodesian, long, long war and blockades. So all of that became a part of our lives. Now we would go to work and do whatever it was you were doing. And CUSO was finding more teachers and, and professionals to work in Zambia where I was living. But the picture became larger. And CUSO did have part of its raison d’être and part of the way it worked, was communicating to Canadian people what was going on in the countries we were living in.

DOUG MILLER 09:39

I imagine a number of the people who were there as teachers and professionals. Also like you met. and met the folks from Southern Africa and became quite, quite sensitized to what was going on.

DAVID BEER 09:53

Yes, and all our meetings, we would have representatives of the liberation movements coming to talk to was the meetings in Zambia and our regional meetings, staff and volunteers and, and nationals came from the five countries that we worked in. So. So we then had quite a communication system in Canada. That was telling the people that this is what CUSO was doing. We wanted to continue to work in the professional areas of the home country. But we also have something to say about the atrocities and nonsense that was going on in southern Africa.

DOUG MILLER 10:35

So many of those must those people must have come back, like yourself to Canada after their their tour of duty to to get involved in pressuring the government.

DAVID BEER 10:46

Yes. Many became members of liberation support programs across Canada, which were the churches, Oxfams. All kinds of NGOs in Canada, then call them NGOs, who had some things going on overseas in the areas of conflict. So with CUSO’s support, we could we help to bring leaders of the ANC and ZAPU and to, to Canada on speaking tours. Church basements, community halls, et cetera, et cetera. Now, CUSO was supported by the Canadian government funding through CIDA in those early years and still is. And, of course, CUSO was supporting openly freedom in South Africa and Namibia and Zimbabwe. And that was a political position. With a small p, we didn't support them on the ground. But we could support their cause in Canada. And we supported their projects in the frontline states. So that got us into trouble with with CIDA and the Canadian government. So that there were calls for CUSO to stop bringing liberation movement people to Canada.

DOUG MILLER 12:37

Now, to put this into context, we're talking about 1965 to the 75 or so it's cold war time. South Africa, Portugal is a member of NATO, always fully supported by Canada, arm, his arms and everything. South Africa was seen as a Chretien or a bulwark against communism. And even for that matter, a lot of sympathy for the Rhodesian whites. Yes. So, so this controversy with the Canadian government would not be isolated just to government. I mean, the media, others will be critical as well, were they not?

DAVID BEER 13:21

Yes, the right-wing press. Can I give you an example? In 79, was the Commonwealth conference in Zambia in Lusaka. And there was a Joe Clark was the new prime minister, the new young Prime Minister. He represented Canada and Flora MacDonald was the Foreign Minister and so we had 50 journalists from Canada coming to Lusaka and we thought, wow, this is a good chance to communicate with those people about the Zimbabwean struggle in particular. So with our ZAPU comrades, we were able to arrange for the journalists to go to some of the camps and learn firsthand what was going on. One of the biggest camps, Victory Camp, had I think, 2000 women and girls who were being cared for by ZAPU and international funding. So we had them going there, and we even got Flora to go there. Which she was delighted to meet the women and of course, she is a politician. So she was happy to, to speak. gathering outside of 1000 girls, and so it was important for us to do that.

Back in Canada, at the same time, there was a vicious campaign in the right-wing press the Toronto Sun for example, with cartoons of the leader of ZAPU having missiles and guns being given by internationals, including Canada, I mean absolutely preposterous. Well in The Globe and Mail, a Saturday, there was an article about me, that was done by Norman Webster. And the opening paragraph was something like “Some people think the Zimbabweans fighting for, for freedom are terrorists. David Beer has them for dinner”. That was the opening paragraph called boy. And then there was rather not, not, that was an editor back in Toronto. Norman Webster didn't write that himself.

But then there was this story of us helping ZAPU. The tone was of the Globe was “who is this whippersnapper David Beer doling out Canadian taxpayer money to terrorists?”. This was in the editorial page, hahaha oh brother. In those days, we didn’t have instant phone calls. I got a phone call from our publicity person in Ottawa. She’s reading this thing because I’m not, I’m far away, She said. “David, is this true, is this true?” I said, “What, what is true?”, “did you say that”, she’s reading from the newspaper. CUSO came to my defence, thank God. But that’s an example, there were many examples of right-wing professors and right-wing journalists who were pro-South African, who would fight against the Oxfams and the churches for helping the freedom fighters.

DOUG MILLER

Today, in retrospective, it’s hard to believe that could have existed here in Canada, that the so-called liberal democracy would be so sympathetic to racist regimes that were violently oppressing their people.

DAVID BEER 4:03

Yeah, particularly, the Portuguese regime because Canada was a part of NATO and Portugal was a part of NATO, why in the hell were we allowing guns to go to Portugal because of our NATO let alone the South Africans staying South West Africa in Namibia. There were many good Canadian politicians.

DOUG MILLER

I was about to turn it around. How did you reach out to the mainstream to bypass this kind of or overcome?

DAVID BEER 4:45

I already talked about the visitation of many leaders of the liberation movement coming to Canada that CUSO was assisting in those trips. There were also many Canadians in small towns and churches, you know, they were receiving these people and giving them a place and a voice. So that was important , the voices of Namibians and Zimbabweans. And wasn't because they were being heard in places in Canada that they otherwise wouldn't hear. We also, CUSO and other organizations were trying to influence Members of Parliament. There and there were indeed, friends who were obviously anti-apartheid, obviously anti-Smith. In each party, most parties, not so much the conservative right-wing. But the Red Tories, if you will, who were at some humanity, and there was Flora MacDonald and there was David MacDonald and, and a number of Tory MPs who were in opposition. They were very happy to meet the people that we brought very happy to meet and endorse the idea of freedom. Fundraising, we were fundraising for the projects that we had. So Canadians got involved in that. So there was an organized plan of communicating to Canadian people, and raising funds to support the projects. And again, that's, that's a wide variety of organizations in Canada. So that's what we did.

DOUG MILLER 06:53

And CUSO, by that point, started having a network of development education offices and their local committee networks that also were very receptive to these.

DAVID BEER 07:05

Yes, yes, that I think we had 18 offices across the country. And I would go on living and working in, in Zambia in the region. When I went back to Canada, I would go on tour, and go to a little towns and places where CUSO was recruiting. So that was another way. But we were, then we moved to the liberation struggle when Zimbabwe became free, Mozambique, as well and Namibia. And then South Africa, in 94. After the release of Mandela and the victory of ANC and the election, we began a different phase. We were working in the new countries and I had been the regional director based in Harare in the early 90s. And I and I wanted to, to finish up, certainly after Mandela was released, and I've been so close to the ANC. They basically, you know, they said, come on home.

DOUG MILLER 08:34

Well, you've told me several times, because of your work with the different movements, you've told me that well, of course, you were there in Zambia, independence, you saw that happen. But then, in 1980, when Zimbabwean independence, we'd been working, you had been working with ZAPU, hands on but for quite a while and we're firmly connected to them by so many connections, including CUSO cooperants who had married into the movement and vice versa. Do you tell a lovely story of being at Independence in in Harare and being invited to state house?

DAVID BEER 09:24

Well, that independence I think is April 18 or something. I crossed the border in Zambia in the vehicle keys a vehicle and drove into Salisbury, and then next night was going to be independence. With the Prince Charles handing over the flag or something to Mugabe, who was the Prime Minister then, and I met a lot of Canadians Clyde Sanger who, who had been involved in in supporting the Zimbabwean cause. And I had to get my credentials. CUSO was formally invited by ZANU, the new government to come in. I was representing CUSO. So I had to go to the official places where the delegate cards were being given up. And they were, they were manned by white Rhodesian civil servants, which was so crazy. Anyways, I'd already been in that day to the ZAPU headquarters and the ZANU-PF headquarters just to greet them and say, “Great stuff”.

Anyways, at one point I was in a line of international solidarity groups. So, I got to the front of the line, or behind a Polish solidarity group, and then I come along. And there there's a CUSO card for the Canadians. And there was some kind of dope. So Clyde Sanger, who was a journalist, he said, “David, what, you know, why don't you take the line that you you're a journalist?”. And I remember, oh, yeah, I can do that. I represent CUSO Bulletin, the CUSO newsletter thing. So I go to the press people. And I'm presenting myself and I present the CUSO Bulletin. And oh, sure, I mean, these guys didn't know CUSO Bulletin from the New York Times. And so I had to and guy and then quite a nice setup in the journalist section that night to watch this incredible event.

And what was most moving to me was there were the military and royal Rhodesian this and that with all their feathers and colonial uniforms, and then there with the uniforms of some of the British and, and maybe a, this and that, I don't know, there weren't any Canadians. And they were marching around the edge of the field. It was a football field in the in the stadium of 25,000. And the last group of marching men that walked in, were two units of maybe 30 men abreast, no feathers, no nothing. One medal on their, their dark military outfit, was the freedom medal, which had been given out and, and I recall them as they marched around, one group was was ZIPRA with the other group was ZANLA. They hadn't joined up yet. And the crowd it was like a Mexican wave, you know, as they approach the different sections of the crowd as they went around, people would yell and get up and and clap and that they were that was their boys, the boys from the bush, and they went round, and then lined up in the middle of the field, in front of where the things were going to happen. And I just remembered the lights sparkling on each man in, in that group. I was completely oblivious to any other military, whatever. And, you know, within a few, maybe another hour, there was the proclamation and, and Mugabe was the prime minister. And –

DOUG MILLER 00:19

Then I think the next day you went to state house. Oh, yes.

DAVID BEER 00:23

So the prime minister Mugabe invited us. All the delegates are the people who were representing organizations. And it was one delegate per organization, government or NGO or liberation support movement. So I went off to the Prime Minister's residence, we had a huge, hot lawn. It was all tables and food and stuff. And but you entered one part of the of that space by shaking hands to to Robert Mugabe and Sally Mugabe, his wife. And it was an opportunity to say some words to them a few words because people were coming in. So I walked across the expanse of the lawn to when one of the tables and I met a couple of folks that I knew, but then I noticed a car coming up to the reception area, and it had a Canadian flag, the red and white flag. So I thought, well, it was it was Mark MacGuigan, our foreign minister. And he was the only representative of the Canadian government because they can only have one person. That's the Chretien, Chretien, you know, he was a conservative. Oh, it was conservative. MacGuigan was conservative. I think it was.

DOUG MILLER 01:53

Now I'm confused was, it was 19 8080. Yeah. No, that was that was Chretien. Yes. Okay. Yeah. 79 we had short lived Clark government and then Chretien came back in. Or was it Trudeau maybe even at that point, it was Trudeau had come back? Yes.

DAVID BEER 05:01

And he's thinking as well on my left. I could hear a high-pitched voice and I turned and there was this beautiful woman reaching up and there was Daniel Ortega the Nicaraguan, and she's translating for him. And I really like Daniel Ortega, my hero. Then over there was Joshua Nkomo and, and it was, there was just Mrs. Mrs. Gandhi, what was there? You know, the daughter of Indira Nehru. Yeah. So there were moments. Yes.

DOUG MILLER 05:46

Well, those are very important moments. You were you were also present at Namibian independence.

DAVID BEER 05:55

Yes, 10 years later now. It was 1990. And Jonah Nolan, the field officer, I was 1990. I was working for the ANC in Lusaka. And everything all broke loose there. But we went off to drove down to Namibia from Lusaka. That's a long trip, it is, we went down to Livingstone and went across the Caprivi Strip, and down to Windhoek. And there, there was an occasion we went to the stadium, this time the stadium was only 10,000. And they were going to inaugurate Sam Nujoma as the president of SWAPO who would become the president. But beforehand, there was some speeches and De Klerk was there for heaven's sakes. And then he sort of made his speech and then he, he disappeared under the stage and we never saw him again.

But just before a next speaker came the MC whoever was I don't know who was going up, said to the people, we were just taking a minute and we have another person coming and up at the back with a column like in an ice hockey arena the the gondola or where the people who do the broadcasting. There was a kind of wooden structure that maybe they had it for football games for, and out the door comes Mandela and Winnie Oh, wow. Again, I'm in another situation with with, with Mandela and Winnie arriving. And he, I mean, the place went nuts. And we were all, you know, 10 yards, 15 yards away from them. There was a VIP section. And then I had there was one that was sort of Second Class VIPs for CUSOs and stuff like me. So that was, that was really something, that was.

And then it took a little bit longer, but to be in in South Africa at the time of the victory in the election. And I had been connected to the ANC constituency office in in Joburg where the CUSO office wasn't where I live. So I said I can help out with driving on, on voting day. And so I drove up to the ANC office in Yeoville. And what hit me was the lines of of people in there all lined up to vote. And they went round and round and across. It was serpentine. Exactly. And I mean, my tears, my even thinking of it today, it's just incredible. And I went to the ANC office, and they said, right, you go down to Harrison Street for the Interior Department. And there'll be comrades there. And oh, yeah, first of all, take five or six in your car down to Harrison Street, and they'll get out and they'll vote and then who's ever there. wanted to come back. You just bring him back here to the ANC office.

And what was amazing was that these people they were just ordinary urban folks. When they came out of the, when they had their card, and I could see them as through the mirror into the backseat. And they were looking at this card, like, like it was a piece of gold. And they were in Zulu or, or Xhosa I don't know what, just amazed that it was such a moment. And they dropped them off. And then they'd go to the polling station, whatever happened to them, because there were thousands of people.

DOUG MILLER 10:26

Well, that for decades of different independence movements, reflects, I think, a lot of work back in Canada as well. And while you spent a lot of time in Africa, nonetheless, the focus was very much back at Canada to how did you see it evolving? From those early days, through the Rhodesian struggle, you've talked a little bit about the right-wing opposition or the Rhodesian struggle. But then once you're in Rhodesia, or Zimbabwe, now, there's the South African struggle and the Namibian struggle. How did you see the work in Canada evolving and your role in it and what people had to do?

DAVID BEER 11:11

Well, I think you soon learned, of course, that the struggle was, was going to take a long, long, long time, that struggle meaning the struggle of, of peoples, for their own liberation and their own societies being free. So the fact that there was another one, after another one, after another one, they were all linked to Western colonialism and economic imperialism. And the cause was not in, in Northern Rhodesia, or in South West Africa, the names of those places before they became nations. The causes were back home, in Canada and America and Holland. And the fact that Canadians were involved in external, so called struggles. They, they've they finally got tuned in, that there were internal struggles in our own countries. And that, that was true. And there were tremendous moves by Canadians to fight for human rights, etc, in our own country. So I guess I got it. I landed on thinking that that that was the case. But I spent 35 years of my life in Africa, my adult life before I, I retired, and I worked in Canada, with the International Defence and Aid Fund for Southern Africa, as well as CUSO.

But I didn't get myself involved in a particular NGO, or organization other than that, in Canada, but I was exposed. I also worked with the Inter-Church Committee for International Development, which was Ten Days for World Development. And that exposed me to Canadian struggles. And I could then articulate those. The parallels to Canadians that I would be speaking to and with

DOUG MILLER 13:49

African, Indigenous people.

DAVID BEER 00:00

And that's why I find today, the highlights of and the victories that Indigenous people have had in the last 20 years. Just incredible and wonderful. But I was not involved in that. And I don't, that seems like a big hole. Maybe if I hadn't gone overseas, David Beer would have been involved in human rights struggles in Canada and Canada.

DOUG MILLER 00:30

What about your work setting up helping set up the development education department of CUSO, for instance, would not have led to that kind of, it was the seed planted for that count?

DAVID BEER 00:41

Yeah, you're right. And it drew the parallels. And it did it did expose.

DOUG MILLER 00:50

But oh, boy, you know, today is just tremendous, highlighting action and leadership, and quite incredible to hear the language of the native people. In a way what we talked about. Yes. In southern Africa, colonialism, settlers, yes. Native rights, Indigenous rights, people's rights.

Let’s take a short break, regroup. That's a good stretch.

DOUG MILLER 00:03

So David, my goodness, there's so much ground to cover you and your role overseas, you spent much of your time in, in Africa, to working with and cultivating relationships with and the solidarity with the liberation movements, the network of anti-apartheid groups across Canada and they were varied. Did you have much contact with them at all?

DAVID BEER 00:28

I had a lot of contact through my work and being based in Ottawa, with the development education program, and also the central Southern Africa program. We were communicating with numerous Canadian organizations that were also working in, in southern Africa and working with the liberation movements.

DOUG MILLER 05:00

Unless meant and not immediate here to was not covering this. No, no, no. This is building.

DAVID BEER 05:08

Yeah, this is building agriculture buildings in this ZAPU refugee camp outside of Lusaka. And and we were funding this one. And I guess I'd come to say hi.

DOUG MILLER 05:26

And so it was important because this news was not coming out in mainstream media anywhere. I guess not. No. This is one of the camps with all the little children because I believe we had daycare support as well. Well, this would have been one of the big ZAPU camps in in Lusaka. And it would be some kind of, I don't know love the kids, yet. Lots of kids.

DAVID BEER

So these sorts of things were really important. Then you have, but then we did the newsletters. Not just sending, not just as far away people. But we put together this Southern Africa Information Group Newsletter, these first ones were just typed stencil that was run off on Gestetner, whom many people from this generation, nobody know what Gestetner is and, and slowly we improved its format. Yes. As it got better and better. And then we had news clippings, and it got a formal heading. Do you have that right in front? Okay, it's just like this. No, no, it's just like, oh, you and and then, as part of the whole struggle with Zimbabwe in trying to get its struggle dealt with, in 73. This gentleman came to Canada and settled here in Montreal, worked for the Gazette and wrote a whole series of articles about what was happening in Rhodesia at the time. Yeah. Tell us a bit about you.

DAVID BEER 07:15

Hugh Nangle. Old friend, who's since passed away. He was a born Rhodesian. But he came to Canada, and he was a regular journalist with the Gazette and you're in Montreal, and a couple of other ones. But in the 70s, because of his expertise, in southern Africa, he, he was able to write authoritatively about Rhodesia. And he did a series on Canadian businesses in South Africa. So that was really important to broadcast what he wrote in the big papers, but getting them out across Canada. And that's where it's SAIG, our organization, Southern Africa Information Group. Were able to put these together in our SAIG reports.

DOUG MILLER 08:23

Interesting, SAIG, because we were in Ottawa and there were very big hitters that were part of that flight. Sanger, for instance. Yes. Doug Anglin. Yes. Can you tell us what kind of, when I call them big hitters, what that meant?

DAVID BEER 08:38

Well, they were people who, who had devoted their lives, their professional life, in part to teaching or writing about Southern Africa. Both Doug Anglin was the first Vice Chancellor at the University of Zambia, Canadian that was really important and important position.

DOUG MILLER 09:08

What years would we be talking?

DAVID BEER 09:10

Well, that that was 1965 ish. Oh boy, because that was right after independence. Yeah, the university was built and Kaunda asked Doug to come. Clyde Sanger lived in Ottawa. But he took positions in communications information office. It was for years at the Commonwealth Secretariat in London. He lived in, reported in Rhodesia when it was Rhodesia. He knew the early leaders of the Rhodesian African organizations that were fighting for independence and they also went to Nairobi and was based there for The Guardian. And maybe the Observer. But he was living and working for many years.

And he's still in, in, in Ottawa, so those people associated themselves with us who were much younger. And we were doing thingsm like when I was living in Ottawa when I worked, it was working with you. We had SAIG. So that was tremendous, because of their expertise and knowledge.

DOUG MILLER 10:35

And they really carried weight. Let me wrote something. They would be our representatives who would go sit in front of the house, House of Commons Standing Committee on Foreign Relations, yes to do presentations. And then, one of the SAIG newsletters you you pointed out to me was really quite significant for the comment and how it was, now what year was that? When this one is? 74? December, January 75. But what I what I spotted when I looked at it, what on earth was going on? “Smith frees Africans in ceasefire deal”. Wow. So the leaders of the Zimbabwe liberation movements were about to be freed.

DOUG MILLER 11:26

After having been detained. 10 years. 10 years. Yeah.

DAVID BEER 11:31

Then there's Angola. Agreement. ceasefire. Again, no Canadians would ever see this. This news. There was no CNN. There was no, you name it BBC World.

DOUG MILLER 11:49

And certainly about the social network of social media. Yes.

DAVID BEER 11:54

Bitter end, guerrilla war ends. Well, that was bitter. All right. I didn't actually finish them, but. And then in Namibia, there would be stuff. So I, I was quite impressed with these seeing them again, after 40 years all by? Oh, my God, because when we were together in Ottawa, sticking and pasting, and cutting and deciding how we were going to editorialize.

DOUG MILLER 12:28

I have we had I have one poster from that would be 74. That was a particularly significant one. I'm not sure where you were at that point in history, but Quebec, Angola zone and Libya A. And we had worked with a gentleman named John Wah, who was very, very close to the MPLA. And who, and who did a great effort to bring together SUCO and CUSO and many other NGOs to bring Dr. Neto to Canada. And this poster came up from SUCO offices, oh boy. And of course, under the Trudeau Government of the time that was working on, by the word Canada national unity. This was very contentious one but very, very, they were striking hard at it. Yeah. Now, do you feel this probably had quite an impact on relations with the government and the NGO world?

DAVID BEER 13:39

That was inflammatory.

DOUG MILLER 13:42

Do you feel that, all the work we did, you did, the movements, the anti-apartheid movement, did it have an impact on how things were going and how governments

DAVID BEER 00:04

Well, I do, it was hard for small civil society organizations on one international issue to affect the government or a government. But Canada had much more involvement with Africa 20 years ago, of course, the liberation movements becoming governments was a new phenom for them. But I think there were, there were members of parliament, and there were members of government that were sympathetic to the kinds of things that we were trying to move, using economic sanctions, using the United Nations using support to the frontline states. So I do.

DOUG MILLER 05:00

I like that philosophy quite.

DAVID BEER 05:04

The message that I was trying to leave was that we have to understand our friendship with the peoples of Southern Africa, through the eyes of “we are in solidarity”, in solidarity with their struggles. So that that was different from sending a dollar or doing some small simple thing. But if it was understood, as an act of solidarity, that we believe in what you're doing, then I think that was deeper.

Another example was CUSO was supporting ANC projects in Lusaka, Zambia. And it was at the time of the Clark government and the Commonwealth Congress, it must have been 1979. And Flora MacDonald was the foreign minister. And the Conservative government had announced a cut in aid to Cuba, to Vietnam. And maybe another place in Asia and the ANC. So the CUSO director got the regional directors together, we were there for a meeting already, at a dinner that Flora MacDonald, the foreign minister, whose constituency was in Kingston, and we were meeting in Kingston as CUSO that we would have dinner with her. So he organized the five regional directors of CUSO, which had a country or a place that had been cut by by the Clark government. So we went to a very nice place in Kingston. And Flora MacDonald was a very personable, enjoyable person, and she was what it was called the Red Tory. So she said at the end, I remember and our great leader, executive director was at that. And then we sat in the middle. And each of us, I mean, of course, it was orchestrated, had a moment where we would explain why we thought that cutting wouldn't make any sense. So we and of course, she was very, as a politician, she was used to this kind of stuff. Well, they didn't, they didn't change their government policy. So when you asked me, “did we change? Did it work?”. We didn't get that.

So I went back to Lusaka. And I went to ANC headquarters on Cairo Road. And I asked to see Alfred Nzo who was the secretary general of ANC. And he was a jolly fellow and easy to talk to. So I, I'm actually going to his office. And he said, I mean, he knew enough and he said, “Comrade, Dave, I understand you just came back from Canada, how is Canada making new these things?”. So then I'm coming to tell them that we didn't get the matching grant that we wanted for the ANC children's creche, the scary thing like that. And I start to tell him about Canadian politics. And I'm explaining this and explaining that and he had his sort of gesture, smile on his face, he just let me talk talk. And then I stopped. And then he looks at me. And he understands the matching grant thing, that we raise money from the Canadian people, and then it's matched by the government. And it was a $10,000 project or was a $5000.

So I said, “Well, we were able to raise the half the $50, 5,000 that we failed to get the Canadian government piece”. So he smiles and he leans over. And he says, “Comrade Dave, the first 5000 is what counts. And he just disarmed me.

I mean, he just, he knew. That's exactly what it is. That the people of Canada gave $5,000 to the ANC for their children's creche out of their pockets. Yeah. And the Canadian government, what the hell? So he understood what solidarity was. Oh, yeah.

DOUG MILLER 09:51

You also told the story about how Joshua Nkomo understood that solidarity, even he himself was at a very difficult time in Zimbabwe. history right after independence and you were trying to open up CUSO programming in Zimbabwe as the ZANU-PF government was seriously repressing or oppressing the, their so-called allies. I think that too is another example if you wouldn't mind telling that story being in, what do I owe? Yes.

DAVID BEER 10:24

Well, it was very difficult. It was a year and a half after the new government in in Zimbabwe was there and ZANU was in power. And Joshua Nkomo was the leader of the opposition. And he was really bad in that and Matabeleland, they were, part of the army were, were killing villagers and it was pretty close to danger for Joshua Nkomo to remain in his country. So I got word from a, by this time, of course, we were dealing with a government. We weren't dealing with political parties anymore. So I was in Bulawayo. And I was informed that Joshua Nkomo wanted to see me. Well, that was quite a rare thing. We didn't see political leaders like that. So I was just, just to recount the severity of the situation. A comrade of ZAPU that I knew very well, he led me to a hotel in Bulawayo. And I was taken by cars dropping off, and drop into the townships.

DOUG MILLER 11:47

One car, leaving you somewhere with another car picking you up.

DAVID BEER 11:51

Yeah, yeah. And I thought, whoa. And I knew that Nkomo was almost a prisoner because he was being looked at harshly by the government. And I went to this big house, in the township and waited in line with people who were wanting to see him as their leader and to help them out with this or that. So I came in to his room and ate the sicne into his room. And Joshua Nkomo was 300 pounds, huge men. And he was, he was one arm on the desk and one arm on his chair. And his head was almost between his shoulders. He was so, the picture of devastation and didn't know what to do, kind of thing. And we knew him as a strong leader. Oh, proud our ticket. Yes. So the story, he wanted a new NA thank us Zapple es que so helping example and in Lusaka. And he's asking me, and I knew what was going on now. If CUSO could help ZAPU in Bulawayo, with the kinds of projects that we were doing in Zambia.

Well, too, so we couldn't, CUSO couldn't work with a political party in that situation. And I had to say no. And it was very, very difficult. And he understood, he understood, and I think I'd have to get his book but some weeks later, he crossed the border and went out for maybe a year before he came back to the unity government. But CUSO was there for them in solidarity, but we couldn't be there.

DOUG MILLER 00:10

How do you feel? I mean, this lifetime of work with that has had a huge impact on you. You must be quite emotionally attached to so much of that. Yes. What kind of impact do you think it has left on you?

DAVID BEER 05:00

[words missing?] and contract with ANC. So we were invited to the occasions of the party in the exile community. Well, the first the first one was when the maybe six of the leaders came Walter Sisulu, Govan Mbeki. And I'll remember some of the other ones. But they were the all in jail with Madiba. So we went to the airport when they came, thousands of people and the ANC community, which was probably a thousand or more, I were just so happy to see them. So I was writing letters that time and reports and maybe I could read a little bit of what was going on that particular day that the plane arrived with the six leaders. I'm writing about the highlight of the month, the arrival of presence of ANC leaders from inside. “We were invited by our ANC comrades to be with them right out on the tarmac with 3000 delirious South Africans and Zambian supporting cast. All protocol broke down with the heavy duty international network of cameramen muscling out dignitaries to get their shots. There was a diplomatic line, which had been formed with the ANC national leadership and the UNIP ruling party of Zambia Central Committee etc. Where Madhu ban and when he would walk down and shake hands,

DOUG MILLER 06:57

Or this is Govan Mbeki. Oh, sorry,

DAVID BEER 07:01

Yeah, this this this was right. They were the six leaders we're going to work no. But the, the emotion of the occasion caused the greatest breakdown in the line. And it was all hugs. These men and struggle hadn't seen each other for, exile leadership and the guys in jail for 25 years. So the hugging, I call it as Walter Sisulu and company were swept into bear hugs of the exile leadership. Oh, yes, it was really very exciting to see Joe Slovo hug his never forgotten comrades. And to see Alfred Nzo, walking hand in hand with Walter Sisulu. And there were the reunion of the Mbeki and Sisulu fathers and sons. Small children were held up high. So, over the heads of their grandfathers. Albertina Sisulu was right there too. Wow. And the two CUSO folks representing the people of Canada, in lieu of state representatives, only footsteps away from the crush drenched in the misty rain. I hope you saw some of that on TV. It must have looked fantastic. You probably saw more of the leaders and we did.

DOUG MILLER 08:41

So these are real high points that –

DAVID BEER 08:43

yeah, that it's a lived experience. And I often don't speak about it, because it's far away. And the people that I associated with today, except my family are few old CUSO friends. That time has passed, and those events have passed. So it's fun to find writings and pictures of that and to remind people of what, what we were doing and what we were concerned about.

DOUG MILLER 09:18

And what we were up against. Yeah. Yes. Just before I turned the camera off, you know, is there anything else? Anything good? For instance, is there one high point that's particularly that stays with you forever? Too many?

DAVID BEER 09:40

Well, he's well, they're there. They're many. But I think of I talked to you about seeing Mandela and when he walked out of that Zambia Airways plane, yes, down to the throngs on the second airport. there that was incredible. There were there were moments of, of uniqueness. When Flora MacDonald, the conservative Foreign Minister at the time of the Commonwealth conference when she went before a thousand Zimbabwean girls and women at this Victory Camp at the time of the Commonwealth conference in Lusaka and the expression, the salute from the women, in ZAPU, you would say z, well, you get a thousand women and girls doing that, as Flora came up on the stage. That's a hell of a sound.

And of course, being the politician, she was she, and many, many, many of those girls and women spoke English, she gave a little speech and she said, “Now, I have to say goodbye to you. But if you if you're ever in Canada, and you're ever in any trouble, you just ask for Flora”. And I mean, she, she could say that. Well, I don't know, twenty years later maybe 15 I don't know, a Zimbabwean beautiful woman doing her graduate degree or something, walks in to Flora MacDonald's office in the House of Commons and, and greets her. And Flora doesn't know who she is. But of course, she's so good. She can greet anybody so nicely. And then this woman says to her, “I was in the crowd in Lusaka when you were there. And you said if if we're any trouble in Canada, any in trouble, you must come and say hello to me or something”. Well, she said, “Madam, I'm not in any trouble. I'm doing very, very well. Because of what happened to me in, in the struggle and afterwards”. And she greeted Flora and Flora, of course she didn't know. But I thought, Boy, what a circle that is. And Flora would tell that story, I'm sure oodles of times. And I wasn't there. But I somebody told me that, I thought that was just beautiful. And it kind of kind of knitted together with a bow. Some of the experience was nothing to do with me. But we all had something to do with a little bit.

DOUG MILLER 13:07

You are modest about your, and I would like to point out that to people who are watching this tape that you are still involved with solidarity with your friends from Zimbabwe struggle. Edward Ndlovu, who yes Secretary of Foreign Affairs for traveled the country, married a Canadian, lived in Zimbabwe with him 2, 3, 4 years ago. Yep. And he died.

DAVID BEER

Unfortunately, yes. Shortly after independence. He wasn't that long alive, but

DOUG MILLER 13:45

and you're still involved with Edward?

DAVID BEER 00:00

A little bit. Mary Ndlovu, the Canadian wife of Edward Ndlovu, and other people created a library in a small town, outside of Bulawayo and Matabeleland in Zimbabwe, is highly successful. And there's a small committee in Canada that raise funds from maybe two hundred, three hundred people, thirty, 30 $35,000 a year, that sends the money to that library. And it's called the Edward Ndlovu library. And I have known the family and all the kids since day one. But it's a kind of nice feeling. The committee is a group of sixty, seventy year old women or schoolmates of Mary Ndlovu when she was at average, golden Advic. And they've never been to Zimbabwe. And yet, they they've been doing this stuff for 20 years, raising money for that reason, global black. And I'm the only one who's there who's been there. So sometimes I want to tell them stories about Edward and Mary. And they're so appreciative. But there we are licking stamps and sending stuff, newsletters and things to the people. And you tell me the story about getting a check and going to the bank. And then you would go sit down and have a beer. Oh, yeah, yeah, I when I would put money into the bank, particularly when a big one came in. Then Then I put it in, get the bank stamp on my papers and then I go to the pub. And I toast to my dear friend Eddie. Cheers.

DOUG MILLER 00:00

They'd like their soap, even beer. I know you were involved in anti-apartheid activities from a very young age. And, and you were in Africa on February 10 1990. The the day that the South African regime released Nelson Mandela, actually, he could have been released earlier, but he refused their conditions. He was going on his terms. Yes. And that's why it was a little bit later than really anticipated. But where were you at that time?

DAVID BEER 00:40

I was in Lusaka, Zambia.

DOUG MILLER 00:42

Uh huh.

DAVID BEER 00:45

And I was working actually, as the CUSO field staff officer,

DOUG MILLER 00:57

and what was your role in that?

DAVID BEER 00:59

We had, apart from having a program with Zambian organizations in schools with teachers and, and agriculturalists, etc. We also had a program working with the liberation movements. And those days it was ANC and ZAPU and ZANU and SWAPO from Namibia. And the ANC was was really the biggest portfolio. So we were working with at least a dozen departments on different projects. The economics department had projects on research, the agriculture guys, they had the farm north of Lusaka. So we were helping them along with a lot of other international NGOs, and Canadian NGOs, Oxfam, the churches, CCODP. So well, we knew something was up vis-à-vis an announcement by De Klerk, I think he was going to be in the House of Assembly, whatever. So there was there was a workshop going on up just outside of town. At an institution, I can't remember no. And a couple of Canadians that come over to be the resources for, Bev Burke and somebody else that can't remember. And I happen to drive out maybe for lunch or something like that. And the group of comrades, mixed. Folks from different departments, we're learning about a kind of development education tool.

DOUG MILLER 02:58

Now that when you say different departments, these are the ANC comrades.

DAVID BEER 03:00

So all is ANC. Well, they had their lunch and somebody, they're about to start the afternoon session. And one of the comrades went into the kitchen to turn down the radio or turn something. Anyways, she came back out of this kitchen, screaming and everybody, of course turned to her. “We're free. We're free. We're free”. Everybody said what? And she said, “He's announced it and see us free. We can go back home”. Everybody started screaming and yelling, maybe twenty Comrades, of course, they've been in exile for many years. And it was electric. Well, needless to say the workshop stopped. And folks drove into the city into the ANC headquarters and everything was, was going on course I was loping along behind them, are with them. And we went to Jonah Nolan the field officer, her house and started the party. And I don't know I went to the butcher and got a stack of nyama meats and we were, so we were there till you know into the midnight.

DOUG MILLER 04:38

Wasn't televised on as me broadcasting.

DAVID BEER 04:42

Well, I remember Mandela's release was televised. But it was pretty primitive TV. I don't remember.

DOUG MILLER

No it was on the radio I heard. I heard it on radio South Africa, which was very ironic.

DAVID BEER

Yes, we listened to the radio, SABC to get their propaganda to weigh it up with what we knew was going on through other means, which was basically the ANC. There were hundreds of, thousands of South Africans in Zambia at the time. I would say not a hundreds of thousands. But there, there were, there were 650 working with ANC in the department, and all of the things they were doing. And of course, that was the ANC headquarters in exile.

DOUG MILLER 05:39

And then there were refugee settlements through UN that's where it would go up. So I wouldn't say 100 of – Got it. Got it. Yeah. So

DOUG MILLER 05:51

So so there were lots of South Africans in the country.

DAVID BEER 05:54

Oh, yes. And the leadership was there. And then there were distinguished academic people like Jack Simons and his wonderful wife. They were there. So it was a rich, and the cultural department had all kinds of wonderful Amandla was there the choir? Celebrity choir? Yep.

DOUG MILLER 06:26

The, your role at the time, though, was to help them with their projects. But it was also to bring information and contact to Canada. But the struggle?

DAVID BEER 06:38

Yes, the CUSO role, the liberation office was, was supporting many, many projects for the ANC. But we were also involved in assisting delegations or couples, of people going to Canada to speak as representatives of the ANC, on, on the tours of Canada.

DOUG MILLER 07:12

And so what did the liberation of or the freedom of Nelson Mandela mean to you? At that time?

DAVID BEER 07:22

Well, that was shortly after the announcement. I mean, we I was we could hardly believe it. And then when we saw the pictures on the TV later on Zambian television, it was a thrill. Well because CUSO had such a warm relationship with the ANC. We were, we were, kind of had the lucky breaks of being with the comrades at different occasions. So when Nelson Mandela and when he came to Zambia, a week after his, maybe two weeks after he was released, we were with our comrades on the tarmac get at the second international and there was maybe three thousand, ANC folks and Zambian comrades. All protocol broke down. And –

DOUG MILLER 08:29

you had a nice little comment there that you were reading

DAVID BEER 08:34

this story. So the Zambian Airways plane, like I guess it flew in from Joburg for Heavens, no. Yeah. And that's where you see, I can't even believe Mandela was in Joburg to get on this Zambian Airways plane after all that. So folks gathered right at the steps of this of the stairs coming down from the plane. And there was Madiba and Winnie walking down the steps and all the people were hooting and hollering and we were right in the crowd. And there was a, I wrote some letters and reports back. This one was later on, written in January of 1990. Anyways, a wonderful highlight of the month, not that month. The arrival of and presence in Lusaka of ANC leaders from, this is inside. This is not Mandela. That that was one of the leaders released earlier.

DOUG MILLER 09:54

Okay, so this is a different story. Yeah, I think I'll clip this out of our piece. Okay. But I'm interesting that, that you had so much contact with it. What do you think it meant to South Africa at that time?

DAVID BEER 10:09

Oh, that was again a dream come true. I mean, he was, he was for somebody who had never been seen for years, because he was in prison and the latter years of the 80s, the conflict and difficulties. So it was excruciatingly important for Mandela to be there. And alongside that, the movement to get him free and alongside the, the work of ANC inside the country and Umkhonto we Sizwe, the military wing. There was also huge civil society protest led ironically by the trade unions and churches, and including the President, South Africa, President Ramaphosa was a big unionist. So I think it was a moment in time that everybody had waited for it, there was still going to be another few years before there was an election.

DOUG MILLER 11:27

Knowing what we now know about how South Africa has evolved from these 30 years since his release. Nonetheless, what do you think his legacy is?

DAVID BEER 11:40

Well, the longevity of his prison years was there, and nobody could take that away. And as we know, after he got out of prison and the elections, and he was president for five years and said, “That's enough, thank you, folks. I'm gonna step down and other people can take over”. He had a passion for children. He dedicated a lot of his time and work when he retired to the Children's Fund. He was a man of peace, and he was well respected around the world. Of course, we know that he came to Canada in those years, so that the legacy was a steadfastness of bravery, his written words, which we then could read more easily. And his dedication to unity of South Africa, black and white, and blue, he didn't care. And, of course, after he left, that legacy was hard. Hard bitten, because some of the things that he believed in, and the rest of us learned from him, were starting to diminish in South Africa. So our heroes, the light was lessened somewhat. And then, of course, a lot of the comrades, the old punk comrades who had been in jail with him, have been dying away, and they're gone and the voices are not as in unity. So I personally, you know, I have his picture up there, and I am happy to read the histories of the leadership of southern Africa. And that's all important to me.

DOUG MILLER 13:49

Thank you, David. Yes, that's 14