Marian White

Gwen Schulman 00:00

And I'm going to start by asking you to introduce yourself and your name and where you live.

Marian White 00:05

My name is Marion White. I live in Tracadie, Prince Edward Island. I've been here for the last 30 years.

Gwen Schulman 00:13

Okay, so do you remember a moment or an incident that woke you up to what was going on in South Africa or pulled you into the movement?

Marian White 00:22

Well, I was a CUSO volunteer after I graduated from UPEI. I graduated in 77 so yes, coming home from teaching in Nigeria, a CUSO was, well, that was a very formative time, but really, I became more politically active after my return. So 1979, 1980, it was definitely a time where there was, I wasn't the only one, but various people through the university and solidarity type people. We started activity here.

Gwen Schulman 01:04

Okay, let’s back up for a second. When you were in Nigeria, how aware were you of apartheid and what was going on in South Africa?

Marian White 01:10

Well, well, you couldn't help but know what was going on, but I know CUSO stressed that we not become politically active there, but fire in Soweto, wow,

Gwen Schulman 01:24

Yeah, that was a big turning point.

Marian White 01:28

And I remember the song, so, yeah, so while in Nigeria, no, I just did my job and survived, and it was a major venture. Later found out that, anyway, that's another story. How CUSO was supporting some of the activities in southern Africa, very creatively. Thank you very much to our foremothers and forefathers in CUSO that they were so enlightened.

Gwen Schulman 02:02

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you're back in Canada. What became your first action, or, you know, overt involvement in the movement. Here? Were you here in Canada?

Marian White 02:15

I was in Prince Edward Island. I'm from here, born and raised, and so I, I guess some of the opportunities that came up with tours, like dance troupes, music troops, speakers coming through. So, you know, we'd hear from Halifax that someone was in the region, and we'd jump on board. So I think of the theatre group, or the performances we Benzi is dead, some gum boot gum boot dancers came through. And so it was. We were involved politically, but we surely enjoyed the cultural exchange.

Gwen Schulman 02:58

Which was such an important part of the movement.

Marian White 03:01

Oh yes, yeah. And PEI at that time didn't have a lot of diversity, so it was an encouraging time to be able to bring that some diversity to the region.

Gwen Schulman 03:17

Do you remember what the sort of the public response was, for instance, to the gumboot dance?

Marian White 03:21

Oh yeah. People got up. And, I mean, rubber boots are big time here too, but nothing like these guys, these performers, no people. People were really intrigued. I remember we had, we had that at the university, and so we had, there were sort of a smattering of international students, so they particularly enjoyed being able to bring some culture into the region.

Gwen Schulman 03:49

And do you feel that that bringing in that culture helped to raise awareness about the political situation in South Africa?

Marian White 03:56

Yes, because people really didn't understand how bad it was, and to hear the testimony of the people coming through it made it real to them, like they really couldn't believe what apartheid was all about. In fact, one of the graphics that I'm showing you here today is sort of making that link. Yeah, this one here, I think of, I first was not a great, George Paul did that where he's linking the apartheid, well, the Zulu and liberation here, of First Nations people,

Gwen Schulman 04:35

Oh, tell me more. Who's the artist? George Paul?

Marian White 04:39

Well, he's from New Brunswick, from, oh, dear. Maybe Elsie book took, I'm not sure, but he's, if you were to Google, George Paul. He's a singer and a real leader in the Mi'kmaq community here, at that time, he was living and working with the native count. So in Charlottetown, so, so we would have, in order for that to have happened, we had the speaker coming through or something, and, yeah, it's amazing.

Gwen Schulman

And then that was, this is in the 80s, there surely wasn't too much progressive First Nation solidarity work happening here?

Marian White

Absolutely not. I remember having a whole class supply of books that I got for my son's grade three and four class, and gave them to the teacher, and I don't think they ever saw the light of day again after passing them on so and yet, here I live just five minutes from scratch for the Aboriginal community here. So yeah.

Gwen Schulman 05:51

Would you say that the anti-apartheid movement here was one of the first to try to build those links with the indigenous community? Between the anti-apartheid movement and the Central America solidarity movement?

Marian White

Yes, we definitely saw lots of parallels and the simple fact that the racists in South Africa had modelled the homelands on our reserve system here in Canada. I mean, they came here to learn how to set up the homelands, or whatever they're called, bantustans.

Gwen Schulman 06:31

Yeah, the bantu homelands.

Marian White

Yeah, exactly.

Gwen Schulman

Were those links with the Mi'kmaq nation and others? Were they sustained through the movement, or were they just kind of periodic crossovers?

Marian White 06:42

I think probably periodic crossovers. They, the leaders, they had lots of other things that they were working on.

Gwen Schulman 06:52

Yeah, okay, boy, that is really interesting. So to what degree do you feel that the work that you did reach the mainstream in Prince Edward Island?

Marian White 07:06

Every now and then, there would surface some sort of interest across the society, but we were on the fringe, people just like to put on their blinders and live their simple, peaceful life, and it's really a lot to take into consideration when you even make the links between how you know power and that affects so many people in another part of the world, we were pleased how the federal government With the boycott system, that sort of helped to, I don't know if you'd say legitimize but make it more commonplace. We had more support from, like, a formal government structure, so that was helpful. But no, we were still fairly fringe.

Gwen Schulman 08:21

Now you've referred to tours coming through cultural players and the whole thing. Were there any, did you have any political visitors, people from the African National Congress or trade unionists, or anybody of a more overtly political nature come to the island?

Marian White 08:38

Definitely, we had people from trade unions come through ANC members. Now I there's a press release here. I know, I think it was a woman from South Africa. So, yeah, and that would have been in conjunction with organizations like Oxfam Canada development and peace with the Catholic Church, CUSO International, without the NGOs, like we didn't have any direct links with South Africa. Southern Africa? No, it was through maybe sometimes people who had returned, because we had, myself having been to West Africa, but there were even people who had been to Botswana, Zimbabwe, well, Rhodesia, probably Zimbabwe at that time, who had returned so they had more direct links.

Gwen Schulman 09:39

Do you feel that the people returning from, specifically from that region, did it change the nature of the anti-apartheid movement here, in any way, the message or the tactics?

Marian White 09:51

I think definitely the message, because they had real life stories, real experience, the tactics. Remember, like people wondering, should we be just aiding the aid groups, or should we be supporting the liberation movement? So more directly, more directly, so bombs or bread anyway. We didn't have too much trouble in saying, basically, we'll do what needs to be done wherever the support is greatest. Yeah, we'll do our part.

Gwen Schulman 10:33

So was there a shift towards a more direct support for the liberation?

Marian White 10:39

Aside from through existing groups, like I know, like there was TCLSAC and that and other, we, it would just be through support for their activities. And then I guess it was 1981 where there was the Pan Canadian conference, there in Toronto or in Montreal? Yeah, yeah. So there was a carload of five of us drove up to that, yeah, we all slept in one room, male and female.

Gwen Schulman 11:17

The good old days, somebody local in Montreal billeted you or?

Marian White 11:23

I think we might have been in a hotel, perhaps, I'm not, it was a hotel room. There were two beds, guys on the floor, whatever. Yeah, that was, that was an amazing experience.

Gwen Schulman 11:35

So that was a big conference. When you recall from that conference or that time?

Marian White 11:40

Well, we were just impressed with the organisation and with the speakers and the amazing singing of the South Africans who were there. I think they were from Southern Africa, not just South Africa. So, yeah, we were totally revitalised. Not that we were at a low ebb, going up, but it surely made us want to be more active when we came back, for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Gwen Schulman 12:10

What about the, I mean, I don't know what you call it, the anti-apartheid movement in PEI. Would you actually call it a movement or a group? Or how would you characterize the level of mobilization?

Marian White 12:26

No, I wouldn't necessarily call it a movement. We had connections with solidarity groups, through NGOs and church groups, so we were doing other solidarity work at the same time, many of us were involved in Central America work. It was after the Nicaraguan Revolution. It was in the midst of the El Salvador civil war and Guatemala. So like, that's sort of what some of us did. Thank God for EI at the time, because we would work for part of the year, and we were active the rest of the year thanks to our taxpayers dollars and our income.

Gwen Schulman 13:07

Yeah, yeah. And then a lot of volunteer labour.

Marian White 13:10

Indeed, yeah. Like, nobody, nobody ever got paid. And you'd get small grants, like we had Atlantic Council for international cooperation. Again, it would get small grants to support a tour or produce something, but, yeah, very small, $500,000.

Gwen Schulman 13:35

At least, so when you talk about producing something, I mean, there's that beautiful poster that you're drawing that you just showed me. Did you produce anything else?

Gwen Schulman 13:45

Marian White

Have you seen this one before?

Gwen Schulman. 13:47

That looks very familiar. Yes, here, hold on. Let me just bring the camera up. Okay, tell me more. Okay, that looks incredibly familiar.

Marian White

Yeah, we haven't seen where this came from, but again, this, we would have used that to promote a speakers tour, someone coming through. But I don't remember names, and I haven't found those kind of files, but yeah, I mean, the fist in the year definitely was a big thing. Yeah, and then, yeah, have you seen this one? I think we Oh, wow. That is this was, this was done locally. This was done by a Salvadoran volunteer.

Gwen Schulman

Do you remember their name?

Marian White

I do actually.

Gwen Schulman

Can you divulge it?

Marian White

Okay, yes, I believe he's in Ottawa these days, and it would be, see, I used to ask and put your name, but if you haven't seen it, and I think it was, yeah, Sergio Chavez, C, H, A, V, E, Z, living in. In Montreal? No, he's in Ottawa.

Gwen Schulman 15:04

Yeah, he's in Ottawa now. Okay, I asked because, you know, we are trying to broaden our who we can talk to as part of this project. So it would be nice to try to keep tracking people down for interviews.

Marian White 15:15

Yeah, yeah. He, he was very much involved with Salvadorian movement. So, but an artist, so we used whatever chance we got for local graphic artists.

Gwen Schulman 15:29

One question that we've been asking people is, you know, here we are as activists fighting racism overseas. You alluded to the fact that it was also recognized here in terms of the Indigenous population, but within the movement itself, did you feel like things like sexism and racism were addressed even amongst the people working together in the movement? Was there any just internal to the movement, contradictions or issues that needed to be that you felt needed to be worked on and either were or were not addressed?

Marian White 16:08

We didn't have too many besides the people passing through. We didn't have too many people from the region living working alongside us here, as far as we tended to be mostly women involved in our, doing

the work, although there were some men at times. But as far as internal, I mean, yeah, I guess we were just progressive enough that we didn't allow it to be an issue, and we ploughed ahead. I can't say that it slowed the sort of systemic racism here or sexism. We didn't let it bog us down. We just moved right.

Gwen Schulman 00:36

Did you ever face any kind of opposition here to the work, the anti-apartheid work you were doing?

Marian White 00:41

I remember one older gentleman. I don't know if he was American or not, but yeah, basically saying, “Do you think that you know more than the President of the United States”, I think was something that Reagan had said, and we just basically said, “yes, we do, and we don't have anything to gain from speaking the truth on this so”. And as I said earlier, people preferred just to not rock the boat too much. In fact, I have a pin here. Rock the Boat. Remember that one? Yes, yeah,

Gwen Schulman

Wow. Here. Can you hold it?

Marian White

Okay, yeah. Now this is women rock the boat.

Gwen Schulman 01:39

That's great. Can you tell us more about that? Was that part of a specific campaign, or the context in which that was produced?

Marian White 01:46

Yeah, it was part of an Oxfam Canada campaign, and Botha was in power at the time, and so there were parallels being made between his politics and women, women struggle locally and internationally. Yeah, so, and there was a song too, but I don't, yeah, I forget the song. That was a fun one. And then, of course, oh, wow, with there's this one to the Have you seen this before?

Gwen Schulman

Yes, this is very familiar to me.

Marian White 02:29

Okay, yeah, because on the back, we must have got the design from way, but I see it was printed in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, wow, but it could have been, you know, maybe the design came from other places. But, yeah, Jimmy Clegg, just having died this week, and people didn't know what he looked like, you know, the song that he's, yeah. Anyway, I thought that was interesting, because we, the only that was how what we knew he looked like, yeah, that pin. Exactly. Oh yes, oh, my goodness, I have a story to tell you. Okay, this is all coming back. Okay. So this was the boycott South African wines. Okay, so here on the island, in fact, the Rollo Bay fiddling Festival, which happens every year in Rollo Bay, Prince Edward Island. It's an outdoor festival, great party. So that would have been 80. I don't, you can Google when it first started. But around 1980 we're up there partying and drinking, and someone had a bottle of wine from South Africa. Okay, so there was a lot of homemade stuff too, some. But I when I saw the wine that it's from South Africa, I make this big stink, you know, in front of people who are also partying and so yeah, like “Marion, shut up and just get on with the party. Why are you talking about where the wine came from?”. Yeah, I remember this still people who remind me about that.

Gwen Schulman 04:15

So, yeah, but do you think people heard it? Do you think people heard your -?

Marian White 04:20

You know, at the time, I was just a bitch, as far as they were concerned. But afterwards, after when things came out more, and then they made the links. But at the time, like, what is she going on with? You know, like, it was just, yeah, because you tend to want to just blend in and not rock the boat. But yeah, I still get teased about that. But anyway, that's their problem.

Gwen Schulman 04:52

Yeah and did that boycott, the wine boycott? Did it become an issue on the island?

Marian White 04:57

Did, there were protests outside the liquor stores. Mary Boyd will be able to tell you more about that, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Oh, wow, yeah. Now that would have been through, perhaps the church we had and Mary will tell you more. Have you met?

Gwen Schulman

No, I'm meeting her this afternoon.

Marian White

Yeah. Okay, so yes, there was the social action commission of the Catholic Church. So they had lots of campaigns that, of course, we would join in. Terrific.

Gwen Schulman 05:31

Do you think that the work that you and others did here had an impact on Canadian policy towards South Africa?

Marian White 05:40

Oh, I think it must have yes, especially the around the boycott that didn't, I mean, Mulroney was perhaps a little enlightened, and some of his people, but the den, he played some of the more progressive liberals and NDP would have you know, we were approaching our MPs about the boycott, and I'm not sure if part of that was bringing people out, or I don't think sort of refugee support was part of it. No, it was mainly where Canada was implicit in supporting the apartheid regime and where we had some power there. So the boycott definitely worked.

Gwen Schulman 06:37

Do you feel that your local MPs were, were sensitive to your message, and felt the pressure?

Marian White 06:47

Oh yes, like David McDonald is, was an MP back, the Reverend David, he was an MP back at that time. So pressure from his churches and other churches, they definitely made a difference.

Gwen Schulman 07:04

Just occurred to me, you said something earlier that I want to follow up on. You said it was mostly women involved in the movement here or the coalition work. Why do you think that is do you have any thoughts on that?

Marian White 07:16

I think it continues today. Just women are more open to or empathetic, and, yeah, it's a gender thing. I mean, women are more oppressed, so make more easy parallels between or see the parallels between oppression of themselves here and internationally, I could say we're just smarter too. I'll let rRch deal with that. But yeah, whatever.

Gwen Schulman 08:04

Do you think that your involvement in the anti-apartheid movement and your awareness of that system changed you in any way?

Marian White 08:16

I mean change. It definitely opened my eyes. It made me question the media. It made me question our government policies and coming back from a CUSO placement, yeah, it was more open to international affairs. So in fact, when I graduated, I had two graduations in 76 Chinua Achebe was our, our speaker here at UPI. Wow. So yeah. Then when the next year I did a Bachelor of Education, I was back in Nigeria teaching some of his books. So the students couldn't believe that I had met him, and I didn't even realize how significant he was and his work was literary. I know, sure. Wow, so. But how did it change me? Definitely opened my eyes. Made me make links between power struggles in various parts of the world. Yeah, and it continues today, just more complicated today.

Gwen Schulman 09:47

Yeah, do you ever talk to the younger generations about what apartheid was? You know, it's there's a whole generation now of kids who've grown up post-apartheid. Do you ever talk to them about.

Marian White 09:59

Oh yes, I have a younger nieces and nephews, and, yeah, I find it hard to believe that that was the reality, and I've had contact with over the years, Canada World Youth and a team of participants who would come through. So they were always curious about the struggle.

Gwen Schulman 10:26

So you pulled out the Freedom Charter. Do you want to say a little something about that? I'm just going to scoot the camera. Yeah, I wanted to do I'll just move the pen over to take a look at that for a second. There we go.

Marian White 10:51

Well, that we would have purchased just in paper and, yeah, it was just so progressive that that though Mandela was in jail and the fight was on, yet they had, I guess you would say, the sophistication to come up with something like that. So it was so impressive. Yeah, and we were proud to be in solidarity with a movement that was that had a vision.

Gwen Schulman 11:26

Is there anything else you'd like to add, any recollections or thoughts or anything you haven't covered that?

Marian White 11:39

I think when the AIDS, the impact of the AIDS situation in Africa, that was so hard on the movement there, where they were losing so many leaders, that was, you know, I mean, there was the physical fight, but to have your leaders taken out with a health concern, and we're just lucky that it's not as bad these days, but yet the struggle continues. And, yeah, I think that was something we had a hard time acknowledging and accepting that it was as big a head such an impact on leaders. Yeah, that's about it.

Gwen Schulman 12:37

Do you have any links with South or Southern Africa, or do any work in that Nicholas Apartheid Era?

Marian White 12:45

It's interesting. We have speakers who, because we have the Cody Institute in Antigonish, are you going to visit there?

Gwen Schulman 12:53

Hopefully, eventually, not on this trip, but –

Marian White 12:56

Well, with Coady, there are still lots of leaders of community groups coming over there to do three-month courses. So sometimes we host those folks who want to stay on for an extra few weeks so they could be from any part of the continent. But as far as direct, well, things are a little bit of a mess there. So no nothing that we're involved, that I'm involved in directly.

Gwen Schulman

Now, have you ever been there? Personally?

Marian White

No, I've been to Tanzania, but not to the south, right? Yeah. Okay, and then I did, I did my Nigeria, and I've been to Ghana a couple of times. That was it, okay?

Gwen Schulman 13:45

Marian, Thank you so much. This has been totally fascinating.

Marian White 13:50

Okay, thank you for coming.