Barry Fleming

Doug Miller 00:02

Barry Fleming in Vancouver, Port Coquitlam. And I’m Doug Miller here in Montreal, with Ken Luckhardt in Toronto. Today is Wednesday the 13th of July, 2022. And we’re going to talk to Barry Fleming about his experiences with respect to the anti-apartheid movement and the involvement of the union. Barry, very nice to see you again after such a long time. And I just want to make sure that you realize that we’re doing this as part of an Anti-Apartheid Activist History Project, and that it’s being recorded and will be archived for people to use in the future for research, for broadcast purposes, for educational purposes. Do you agree with that kind of interview? Okay, excellent.

Barry, we go back a long way. But at the same time, we haven’t been together for a very, very long time. So how about giving us a little bit of your background? First with anti-apartheid? Because I know before you joined the union, you also had some more experience and background in that field. How did you get introduced to the issues around apartheid back in that time? And could you give us some dates and where you came from when you did all that? Sure.

Barry Fleming 01:33

So my first job was teaching in Toronto, in Scarborough, and I left after a couple of years, because you had to do Europe in those days, in the 60s, right? So I left regretfully actually, as I loved the kids, but I wanted to go. So I spent a year travelling around. The only part of Africa that I touched was Egypt. But the extreme poverty, etc., have made a mark on me since. And in those days, poverty was virtually everywhere in southern Europe, in Turkey, where I was. I was travelling part of the time with my great bud Mike Belliveau, whose name may be familiar to you as he was with the fishermen’s union, back east. He died some years back. And so, the poverty made a huge impression on me, because I was one of those products of Catholic school, with some wonderful priests. I know that that’s not an adjective that is much in use these days. But Father David Bauer was one of my first influences. Y’all know him from his hockey days and so on.

Anyway, when I came back, I was determined that I was going to try to get a job doing something about mitigating poverty. And Oxfam was advertising for an executive assistant, I think it was, I applied, got the job. So I began working. Oxfam was new, pretty new then to Canada, I think. They didn’t come to Canada until the early ‘60s, and we’re now in ‘67. So through that work, I’m exposed to all kinds of stuff that’s going on in the Third World as we knew it then.

And I wasn’t a radical, though. At that point. I was a bleeding heart, essentially. I hired a guy called David Cayley, whose name probably is familiar to you from his CBC work doing documentaries. And David was a radical. Apparently, he’d already served with CUSO in Sarawak, I think he’d been in Sabah, Sarawak [Malaysia]. And he began the process of making me see that there was more work here than just the unfortunate who were hungry and so on. And I started my own reading then. And I guess the first experience of really heavy anti-apartheid stuff was David and I put on a teach-in. I believe we called it the liberation of southern Africa. And that was around ‘69. The boss was away. The boss was Henry Fletcher. I don’t know if his name is familiar to you, an archetypal British, not a colonialist. He was way better than that. But, you know, the archetypal sort of British charity guy.

And he was away, and we did this. We drew up a poster, we had AKs [rifles] on it. Oh, boy, it was pretty heavy duty at the time. We had, I believe, John Saul speaking, Stephen Lewis, Gerry Caplan. It was a big deal. And when Henry came back, he was furious. It led to meetings of the executive and led to David being fired, because they knew he was the heavier of the radicals. And I quit, in solidarity with David. And that’s how I ended up with CUSO.

So I was with Oxfam for three years. And at the end, I was the youth and education director, and we were doing good stuff. We were writing educational sheets for the schools, and covering the territory, you know, health, education, and so on. And these had gone out all over Ontario. I wished I had kept some. Unfortunately, they’re lost in the passage. So anyway, that was, in some ways, my most consequential involvement with the anti-apartheid, just because of the scope of it. And its consequences, you know, led to a real shift in my own life and David’s.

Doug Miller 07:09

So then you joined CUSO, this is now around 1970?

Barry Fleming 07:14

It’s 1970. As Lawrence Cumming has explained to me, I got hired there, essentially, because of Susan Johnson. I’m assuming all these names are familiar. (Doug: Susan was a neighbour of mine in the Glebe). So Susan apparently gave Lawrence some big recommendations. And Lawrence hired me as assistant director for eastern central Africa. But my intent was always to go overseas because I had been dealing with these issues abstractly, and I wanted to be on the ground. So I was presented, ultimately, with a choice between Papua New Guinea, and Zambia. Of course, I chose Zambia. And, lo and behold, who am I working with? Mr. Southern Africa himself, David Beer, so off I went to Zambia in 1971.

So David and I started working together in a very beautiful relationship, which still endures. And my exposure, of course, then to the reality on the ground began. And after one trip to Dar es Salaam, I was smitten. So I lobbied, and when Wayne Mullins was leaving, I moved over to Dar, and while in Dar tried quite hard to establish a decent relationship with FRELIMO. And we actually did a few projects with FRELIMO. Chissano was the rep then. And what I didn’t know at the time, although I should have been able to deduce it, was that he was just a tad suspicious of us. Me in particular, I think, because Tim Brodhead from CUSO had a relationship with the International University Exchange Fund –Lars-Gunnar Eriksson.

Doug Miller 08:35

Oh boy oh boy.

Barry Fleming

So because of that, I was in the habit of stopping in Geneva and meeting Lars on the way on a couple of trips home. Well, Chissano knew about this and I became, you know, some tainted by that. I wouldn’t call it a relationship, but even just being exposed to Lars-Gunnar. I knew nothing, of course, about his involvement with UNITA, and so on. But anyway, it was enough to [deter] Chissano. I wanted to go, of course, to the FRELIMO training ground outside Dar es Salaam. And I wanted to go there to see how it functioned, with a view to providing support to it. We had sort of access to small funds, right? Yes, exactly. And while Chissano kept promising to take me, it didn’t happen. And so it was a big disappointment.

Doug Miller 11:18

Can we go back one step? So you were one year?

Barry Fleming

Only one, only one year in Zambia.

Doug Miller

Did you meet anybody in the movements at that point and get involved?

Barry Fleming 11:31

Yes, I did. Edward Ndlovu was David’s good friend. And I don’t know when he was married to Mary. But I met Eddie and became a buddy as well. And that was part of the education. And of course, Dennis September, I think I overlapped with Dennis, right. And now Dennis – just the story of you’ll forgive me –, as well being this heavy duty radical in terms of the movement, denied me his house when he was leaving because I was living with a woman that I wasn’t married to. It just pissed me off. Because it became a struggle then to find a place to live. But the contradictions abound. I learned from Dennis, so it was fruitful, on a personal level.

Doug Miller

And in terms of the struggle, was he himself a member of the ANC?

Barry Fleming 12:59

I believe that he was. He was always, let’s say, careful about letting you know too much. But I know that there were comings and goings of comrades that Dennis would see. Sometimes we’d be allowed to meet them. Other times, no.

Ken Luckhardt 13:28

I would, I would vouch for that description based on what I knew and experience with the September family in Canada, in Winnipeg, I believe. That’s a very accurate description: very, very cautious.

Barry Fleming 13:43

So now subsequently Jacques Roy – – does that name ring a bell?

Doug Miller 13:54

From Angola. MPLA [Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola].

Barry Fleming 13:59

Back in Angola. That guy was a piece of work. I mean, an interesting guy, but oh my God. So he was in Dar, or he came to Dar and out. And I don’t remember whether I met MPLA guys with him because he was another guy who wanted you to know only this piece of what he was involved with. And he subsequently scorched me and Dave, in a book that he wrote, calling us both sort of white liberals. And he was harder on Dave than me and I was surprised. It was crazy because Jacques regarded himself basically as the only white person who had a real relationship with the liberation movement.

But through Jacques, I did fund a project with MPLA. I think we provided him with money for camera equipment, etc. He wanted to make films that he could use as educational aids back in Canada. I never saw any of those films. But I know I’m sure that they were made. He was serious about his liberation work. But a difficult guy.

Doug Miller 15:38

He did make a film that I saw. I saw one of them in that period ‘72 to ‘75 when I was in Ottawa.

Barry Fleming 15:46

I don’t recall the money. As you know, we might have had 500 bucks, which, maybe at the time, was decent money. We also funded FRELIMO, at least one for the FRELIMO project. I thought it was bizarre, but that’s what they wanted. So that’s what we gave them. They wanted watches for their guys’ inside [Mozambique]. Now, I guess in a sense, it makes sense. If you’re going to coordinate things and meet and stuff like that, people need the timepieces. And I guess they didn’t have it that much. I don’t know. I would have been much happier providing something more with a little more resonance but that is what they asked for, watches was it. So that’s what we gave them. Well, we gave them money.

So that and of course Dar es Salaam was a hotbed, and it was alive. You felt, you felt the engagement of the country with a struggle. You felt that. Every day the paper was always full. And things were called what they were. The Americans weren’t the liberators of Vietnam, they were puppets and so on. So it was great. And, well, I loved Dar es Salaam, I just loved it with a passion.

So I was there for three years and essentially left. There were fascinating people, deeply involved. John Loxley, Bill Luttrell some of these other guys, they had things going on that I knew nothing about. John once asked me for money, he said, “Barry, I can’t tell you what it’s for. But it’s for good work.” And I gave him personal money, of course, not to have CUSO money. But these were terrific guys. And, as I say, deeply involved.

I left Dar reluctantly, because I guess I realized that while this was the point of the spear, the essence of if South Africa was going to be truly liberated, the work had to be back in Canada, in terms of trade relationships, diplomatic relationships, that kind of pressure that a first world country, as you know, as we use the term then could put upon other countries, etc. And I was determined to go back and sort of do my work in Canada as opposed to Africa.

Doug Miller 19:07

Now, this is 1975

Barry Fleming 19:09

And I also realized that I was pretty deficient in understanding what was, shall we say, the intellectual dimensions of the work. My first degree was in English and Latin. So I did a Master’s in Public Administration. And it was beautiful. I was exposed to Leo Panitch, who became a friend and Don Swartz, who became a friend and became involved with the Ottawa Committee for Labour Action. What was for them? And then upon graduation I was able to get a job with the union, which was, in some ways, a big surprise because I had no union background, I got a job as executive assistant to the Management Committee with the Public Service Alliance of Canada. The Alliance at the time certainly had no formal relationship with anything to do with developing countries. And by now, I’m involved with Oxfam, which I got into in ‘78 or ‘79. But certainly, around that time, at the same time that I was with PSAC. I was on the board of Ontario Oxfam and on the National Board of Oxfam.

Doug Miller 20:59

Yeah, this would be major. This would be quite a different Oxfam from the ‘60s.

Barry Fleming 21:04

Quite a different Oxfam! I mean, it was wonderful. I mean, [Meyer] Brownstone was the chair. And I became the chair of the Ontario board. And we had good staff and so on. But I still have this one foot still very much in Africa. And then one foot in the labour movement. These feet didn’t always march in lockstep. But I tried. I nibbled on PSAC because of the Oxfam involvement. People would say, so and so’s coming to town, do you think you could get him a meeting with some of the heavies in the union? And so there was a bit of that. I don’t remember much of it. But I know that it went on. And I’d write occasionally to the board and say, “What about this? What about that?”.

For example, when Jean-Claude Parrot went to, I think, Central America, he came back a changed man in terms of international awareness, and a desire to get his union involved in assisting that struggle. And I spoke to Andy Stewart, who was then the President of the Alliance, and said to him, “Jean-Claude went to South America and this is what happened. You need to go now.” Andy did subsequently go to some countries in South America. And I prepared sort of country overviews for him for each of the countries that he was going to, what was going on, etc., who the movements were and so on, as much as I knew as I wasn’t any kind of expert on Latin America.

So specifically, to South Africa, it was nibbles as you saw, when the SACTU reps came, it was Ken [Traynor], who contacted me directly, but I was able to get him to see Pierre Samson. Subsequently I believe we gave some money to SACTU which, at the time, sounds ridiculous. But for the Alliance at the time, it was movement, right. And that movement really did start to roll as subsequent presidents came in with a bit more of a world perspective.

Doug Miller 24:22

Ken, do you have any recollection of SACTU’s early relations with PSAC and Barry?

Ken Luckhardt 24:30

First of all, that was fascinating. I appreciate that history. I didn’t know you in those days. But I think I relate to most of what you said there. During my first trip to Dar es Salaam I had the same impression of it being such an active political place. What struck me most is that when you pick up a newspaper it talks about the racist regime, you don’t talk about the government of South Africa, it said racist regime. I used that example when I was teaching in university back here in Canada. People aren’t calling it what it should be.

And that’s still the case. You know, when you talk about Palestine, when you’re talking about Latin America, you talk about the US, nobody uses the word fascism. So there are things that I recall from those days, I was there in the ‘70s with Brenda. And my first connection, I think, with PSAC was in the early ‘80s. And it wasn’t at that time, and please correct me if I’m wrong, the Public Service Alliance wasn’t considered to be the most left wing union in the country by any means.

So, you know, we thought it important to get the public sector unions on side just as we had Bob White from the CAW then called the UAW, so it was very important for us to establish a relationship with the Alliance. And it was in the early ‘80s: ‘83 or ‘82 Eighty-three was when Zola came on his second trip to Canada, from the executive of SACTU based in London. We got him into one of your conventions, and he addressed the convention. And that was Pierre Samson. And on the basis of that initial contact, you’re right, there was a donation of $1,000 to the SACTU strike fund, which, again, was used for more than watches, I can assure you. It also may have included watches, but I don’t know. That was really important.

From our own archives, we have mentioned a meeting that I think dealt with the human rights component of the Alliance. I can’t remember names, but there is reference to that Public Service Alliance component, with a human rights component. And whether that was an amalgam from different other components I’m not quite sure.

But we did have those kinds of educational and on the basis of that, of course, like in all of our work, we would find more individuals who were willing to take it back to their own locals, back to their communities. So people like Ken Clevette, Bagelow, people whose names come back to me.

But, yes, it was very important for us to establish the public sector and Jean-Claude Parrot was on side immediately. I had heard about that trip to Central America. But that probably has a lot to do with his willingness to support SACTU in the South African struggles. Right. So that’s my recollection, I think, and we just moved on over the years. And we got stronger and we got more support. And we got more research based on the work that Ken Traynor had done on the sanctions front, on the trade connections, all the investments, the military collaboration. So those are the early years of our work.

Barry Fleming 27:49

Oh, what about CUPE? Did you have any inroads with CUPE?

Ken Luckhardt

Yes.

Ken Luckhardt 27:55

They came on board very strongly. In fact of all the local unions or union organizations that contributed to the strike fund over all those years, CUPE locals were at the top of the list in terms of the number of locals because of people like Jane Stinson and Gil Levine and activists like Larry Katz, all those people. So CUPE was a very strong supporter. It’s always uneven in national organizations like that. Some parts are better than others. Some geographies are more active than others. That’s true in any national union.

Doug Miller 28:38

Did, in fact, PSAC have a sort of social justice or human rights component when you got there?

Barry Fleming 28:48

No. I don’t want to be unfair to the union. But no.

Doug Miller 28:59

So this was just an absence because the union was spending its time looking after its union members. How did international solidarity become part of the agenda at that point in PSAC?

Barry Fleming 29:12

Just steps at a time. So, each little bit. If you could get Pierre [Samson] to have one meeting, then he became more open to other meetings. And if you can get them to give $1000, then next time, they’re going up the ante. And, of course, the involvement with PSAC means involvement with the larger union movement, because CLC had its international affairs department. Now Harker was nobody’s idea of a radical, right, but Puritt got in there, Paul, I think he pushed open some doors. Grace Hartman was another, and the woman who was the head of the Congress. Paul was able to work with her to get more involved. So an evolution.

Ken Luckhardt 30:37

One of the issues that comes up in all these interviews with people like yourself was that we were operating in the height of the Cold War. So, when you’re talking about the CLC’s international affairs department, you will recall, we had major problems with not just Harker but with the whole political edifice of international trade union work.

So as to SACTU, initially Harker didn’t have a problem with us. But as soon as he was told by Brussels that he should have a problem with us, he had a problem with us, which meant that we had a problem with a lot of the affiliates at the CLC. We had to work our way through a pretty sticky political mess on many occasions, especially at CLC functions. But we did that. I guess the question I would add was, was the PSAC leadership influenced by the Harker and the CLC’s international affairs department? Direction? Quite a bit?

Barry Fleming 31:41

Oh, undoubtedly. Because they would not have had the sophistication to. It is the case, is it not, that Harker, and maybe even Puritt himself, sort of didn’t get onside with SACTU?

Barry Fleming 32:03

Is my memory correct?

Ken Luckhardt 32:05

Correct. And that became a serious problem, especially with Puritt. Harker, we knew who he was. Puritt was hired purely, because they thought he would be able to help reduce our effectiveness. That’s my interpretation. I think Doug would agree.

Doug Miller

Oh, yes, of course.

Ken Luckhardt

Because we were outdistancing the CLC in terms of fundraising, in terms of resolutions, in terms of even actions in the workplace. So Harker was unable to stop that. And people like Bob White and Jean-Claude Parrot and others were on Harker’s ass all the time. And so they needed a different approach. And so they found Puritt to be that other approach. Puritt coming out of the anticommunism in TCLSAC, which was there. Let’s be honest that became a bit of an anti-SACTU tenor as well. Okay, it’s complicated. But that work produced, I think, it was the best of times and the worst of times, because it forced us to be very sharp politically.

Barry Fleming 33:08

All right. Well, and of course, [David] Gallagher was a really good friend of, of Puritt. And Gallagher had a sort of ambivalent relationship to this struggle as well. I don’t know his position on SACTU. It was trickle, trickle, trickle, and subsequently became a little bit of a stream and, and so on. And then Steve Jelly became the assistant to the Management Committee. Steve either lived with Geoff [Bickerton] or they were very close, but Jelly had good politics. And he kept banging away as well. And became a point of access for visiting firemen as it were.

Ken Luckhardt 34:23

I had forgotten Steve Jelly altogether until you just mentioned. He was very important. He became a very important contact for us. Because he was, as you say, very close to Bickerton [Geoff] and became part of an Ottawa initiative on our part.

Doug Miller 34:42

And Ken Clevette, how would you relate to the local leadership from the national headquarters? Would they be pushing you but also PSAC to move forward a little on these issues?

Barry Fleming 34:57

I don’t remember. It was a very, very centrist organization. They would not be pushed by the District Labour Council. But the District Labour Council was really active in Ottawa. The Committee for Labour Action was very, very left. There were a lot of heavy duty radicals in it. We had nothing but respect for what the District Labour Council was trying to do. There were things that we do together, demonstrations, et cetera, a lot of stuff going on. Central America, as you’ll recall, was really hot at the time as well. And because of the closeness to us, in geographical terms, a lot of energy went in that direction, more so than to Southern Africa. But yeah, a lot of good people, just trying, knocking on the door.

Ken Luckhardt 36:16

I think I remember correctly that Ken Clevette was probably more helpful to us as the president of the Labour Council than as an activist within the Alliance, because he could facilitate a lot of things that a member can’t do within his own organization, but he could do a lot with local unions.

Barry Fleming 36:33

You could skirt the bosses. Go straight to the locals. That’s right. So he did that. Now, it’s interesting, Ken, that you mentioned Brussels, because I had a couple of years in Geneva with the PSI [Public Services International]. And the ICFTU that’s a whole other beast, right.

Barry Fleming 37:03

But interestingly enough, the COSATU used to come to the meetings in Brussels, and I met those guys. I met Ramaphosa and Jay Naidoo. And I’ve had a few [meetings] with those dudes they’ve come to the meetings all in black leather and scowl at everybody. And get whatever they want, which is probably money, and then take off. PSI was a whole other story. It’s not pertinent to this discussion, but certainly it was fascinating. To see how the money went and who the players were and stuff like that.

Doug Miller 38:13

So this is really the Cold War.

Barry Fleming 38:16

Yes. Headquarters

Doug Miller 38:19

Spies vs. Spy, straight out of Mad Magazine.

Barry Fleming 38:24

Ken, is the W.F.T.U. [World Federation of Trade Unions] still in action?

Ken Luckhardt 38:30

Not to my knowledge. I’ve been disconnected for quite a while, but I don’t think so.

Barry Fleming 38:35

Okay, because that was the other pole of course, of course.

Ken Luckhardt 38:47

What really upset the CLC, I think it was in 1986, when Jay Naidoo spoke to the CLC convention and made it very clear at the end of his speech that there was no conflict between COSATU and SACTU, that they were doing different things with the same objective. And so that kind of put Harker on the back seat for sure because he and Puritt both had been stirring the pot that SACTU didn’t really exist. That claims of underground work didn’t exist. And here comes Naidoo at their invitation. He says just the opposite.

Doug Miller 39:23

So this is quite a very long career and reflecting back on it, how do you feel it helped move Canada forward a bit towards more progressive policies or helped develop a struggle further?

Barry Fleming 39:44

Well, I think I played my modest part for sure. I think particularly with Oxfam, we pushed it, that whole thing about you stretching the elastic. The teach-in. It kind of blew things up in a sense; they were never able to just go back to being a non-player in terms of southern Africa. There were members of the board who were quite progressive and unhappy to see David Gallagher and I leave, and Mack Freeman as I recall. He’s with the churches. And there was another wonderful old guy who was with the United Church, I think. [Jim Kirkwood] And they weren’t radicals. But they were sympathetic, shall we say, at the very least. They understood the human rights dimension of the thing, even if they didn’t understand the whole sort of political development of it.

Doug Miller 40:56

Well, Oxfam must have evolved fast after that, because by ‘74, ‘75, Judith Marshall was a full time Southern Africa rep.

Barry Fleming 41:04

There you go. The Board that I subsequently joined was very, very progressive, with Meyer and many others, and Michael. One interesting little sidebar, while we’re on the board, Michael Murphy’s on the staff, and they unionize. So who ends up negotiating with me? Michael and I are buds. Michael was staying at my house while we were theoretically negotiating the agreement. Talk about contradictions. There’s one.

Doug Miller 41:51

That sounds like a sweetheart deal to me.

Barry Fleming 41:54

What do you want, Mike? Okay, granted. I don’t think that’s how he remembers it, I think that he remembers I was a pain in his ass. But anyway,

Doug Miller 42:06

That’s very interesting.

Barry Fleming 42:09

Yeah

Doug Miller 42:10

Ken, any other angles we should be looking at here?

Ken Luckhardt 42:14

Only I think you should be writing your memoirs. And with this, yes.

Barry Fleming 42:22

Oh, my memory. You know, I’ve told my own kids, keep a diary. You know, just even if it’s just a couple of notes, at the end of the day, you will be so happy to go back and revisit this stuff. Because all you’ll remember is the broad brushstrokes, the flavour will be gone. Just be the event.

Ken Luckhardt 42:50

That’s why this project has been so gratifying to all of us who were involved with SACTU work because we’re pulling together people and memories and written documentation that we had literally forgotten about. So Jane Armstrong, in particular, has been very good at pulling together archival material, getting it approved by the Library and Archives Canada. And now all these interviews are being added to that as well.

Barry Fleming 43:20

That’s a great idea. You know, some of my buddies from PSAC are doing something similar with the labour history project in Ottawa, Bob Allen. Few guys like that. Rosemary Warskett, who were really good people in the PSAC who had very arm’s length involvement with the stuff we’re talking about, but they could be relied on for donations and, and organizing and stuff like that.

Ken Luckhardt 43:59

Barry, if Jane were on the call right now, she would ask you a question. The question is, do you know, if the Public Service Alliance has archives that we could look to find any documentation of solidarity with SACTU?

Barry Fleming 44:14

I would say yes. Not because I know but because my strong suspicion would be that.

Ken Luckhardt

Who would we contact in doing that?

Barry Fleming 44:24

The contact for that would be Jelly. And if he didn’t know he’d know who would know.

Ken Luckhardt 44:33

Very good, thank you. Yeah.

Doug Miller 44:36

If you have a coordinate or have a phone number or an email for him, could you send it to me? Okay.

Barry Fleming 44:43

I can get it Doug. I don’t have it. Steven, I, you know, having a we were buds but you know, like loose buds.

Doug Miller 44:53

We’ve already made one deposit to Library and Archives Canada. And that included all of the newsletters from SACTU, those famous yellow and black things from that era. And they are extremely interested in these oral histories. They think this is one of the more valuable parts of it to hear the stories told from this perspective, you know, anything we can do to get pictures, background documents, whatever, that’s always more grist for the mill.

Barry Fleming 45:24

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Doug Miller 45:28

I think at this point, Barry, I’m going to formally thank you. And I can turn off the recording and we can just chat.

Barry Fleming 45:36

Well, okay.

Doug Miller

Yeah, sure. Okay, Ken anything else?

Ken Luckhardt 45:42

No, no, I just really appreciate the opportunity to see you again. These are old stories. It’s great.

Barry Fleming 45:47

Thank you, brother and my regards to Brenda.

Ken Luckhardt 45:51

But we’re no longer together. We’ve been separated for many years, but we are buds.

Barry Fleming

Yeah, you’re still buds? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Doug Miller 46:02

And I want to thank you very much. What a great pleasure to see you again after such a long, long time and to catch the story. I know you filled in all sorts of parts of the puzzle that I didn’t even have before. So great, great storytelling. Thank you.

Barry Fleming 46:15

Thank you very much.