Evert Hoogers

Doug Miller 00:01

I’m Doug Miller here in Montreal with the Canadian Anti-Apartheid Activist History Project, and Jane Armstrong and Ken Traynor in Toronto, alumni of the SACTU Solidarity Committee, and Evert, who is in Ottawa, and is a retiree from the Canadian Union of Postal Workers. Evert, welcome. And good morning to you.

Evert Hoogers

Thank you.

Doug Miller

Could you just please acknowledge that you have read the consent form? And you understand that we’re going to be using this for public purposes? Yes. Thank you. So could you just give us a little bit of your personal background and how you got involved in unionism, and then the anti-apartheid work for that matter?

Evert Hoogers 00:55

I was hired by Canada Post in 1972. That was following a few years’ university. So many people were doing that in the 1960s. What was interesting about the time that I was hired by Canada Post was that it followed the 1971 CUPW convention, in which one policy had been passed that had to do with international work. And it was a policy somewhat awkwardly worded, but nevertheless, a policy that opposed apartheid, and called for sanctions against the South African regime. So I wouldn’t say that meant that it was widely publicized at the time, but those of us active in the union knew about it. But just as importantly, in 1974, a resolution was passed at that convention that said that all union policies were an integral part of the Constitution, that had to be included in the Constitution that was distributed to every member across the country.

So there was some background there already that indicated that the union was prepared to do something around the anti-apartheid fight. The problem was we didn’t really know what to do other than to talk about the necessity that apartheid had to be defeated. And the role that emerged with SACTU made a great difference. So that was sort of like the start of where it came from.

Doug Miller

And you were based, where at the time?

Evert Hoogers

I was based in Vancouver

Doug Miller

Is that your home province?

Evert Hoogers 02:49

That it is, okay.

Doug Miller 02:51

Good. And as a member of CUPW did you get actively involved in union politics from the beginning?

Evert Hoogers 02:58

Yes, I did. By the time I started at Canada Post, I was convinced that it was necessary to build the union movement, and I had already become convinced that trade unionism was an important part of building socialism that I was always also convinced was necessary. So, yes, I was an activist. I couldn’t be in those [first] days, it was a period of time in which you were on probation. But the day after I got off probation, I was sworn in as a shop steward, and I was an activist. Following that period, in 1980, I became local president.

Doug Miller 03:48

1980, local president of the Vancouver CUPW. Okay, interesting. Fantastic. So as I recollect the SACTU Solidarity Committee was just starting around 1980.

Evert Hoogers 04:05

Yeah, it was not as active in Vancouver at that point. I think there was a lot of action around SACTU in the East, around Toronto, but Jane can correct me on this, but I wasn’t aware of SACTU activity in 1980 in Vancouver,

Ken Luckhardt 04:29

No you wouldn’t have been. I racked my historical brain last night. I can tell you for certain that the first connection we made at a local level will be in Vancouver, during Zola Zembe’s 1981 trip. I remember standing outside the building of what street it’s on where you had your meetings and waiting for someone to come out and bring us in to introduce those invited to your membership, because you were president. In those days, we were headed and had to confront smokers at meetings and things like that. Zola was an adamant non-smoker. So he wasn’t happy with the environment in terms of smoking, but he certainly loved the response from the membership. That was the first connection. May of ‘81.

Evert Hoogers 05:19

I remember that meeting. Well, it was in a basement home that we had, on Richards Street. And that’s it.

Ken Luckhardt 05:26

That’s where I first met Sherry Hillman and Marion Pollack as well.

Evert Hoogers 05:31

Hi, yes. So yeah, and of course, that meeting that was addressed by Zembe really inspired people in the Local, quite a number of them. And, of course, following that it became apparent that they could work through the SACTU Solidarity Committee. And one of the interesting things about the meeting was that there were a couple of our members there who were actually from South Africa, white South Africans, who were quiet initially. They were somewhat skeptical that it could be someone, a black South African worker could come and tell them what was going on in South Africa. The both of them ended up being totally convinced, by the work you’re doing, by the words that they heard from Zola, and the program that Zola outlined for the solidarity that could be built.

Doug Miller 06:40

That’s a tremendous vignette given what we know of white South Africa from that period. And the problem with white workers in relationships with black workers. [The vignette] wonderful. So from there, you’re the union president, any particular events apart from that which stand out? You spoke about this solidarity committee there.

Evert Hoogers 07:07

It was heartening for me to see that there was a real opening throughout the union. We began to get letters and bulletins from the national office. We became aware that Jean-Claude Parrot, who was national president at the time, had met Zola and was very impressed. And as a result was encouraging members across the country to become active in SACTU work. Now that became a source of hope for us. And I’m somewhat fuzzy on some of the activities in the intervening period between ‘80 ‘81 and ‘83 or so. I am very much clear on some of the work that was done back in ‘85, and ‘86, as things had developed that included a whole lot of locals besides CUPW Vancouver as a result of the solidarity committee.

Ken Luckhardt 08:22

I would like to add a story that goes with Zola meeting Jean-Claude back in the early days. I can’t remember the exact date. But it was fascinating to us who were with Jean-Claude. Parrot was actually in meetings with Canada Post management. Geoff Bickerton and the research director had organized a meeting. Jean-Claude actually cancelled or walked out of his meetings with Canada Post to meet a South African he’d never met before.

Ken Luckhardt 08:57

Very tremendous for my mind, and they hit it off right away. And, of course, Jean-Claude, then like Bob White with the CAW, circulated a letter to all the local unions encouraging them to support our work in Canada with the educational research, fundraising, etc. So that meeting that you mentioned, Evert, was quite historic in terms of the beginning of the relationship that lasted throughout the years of our work.

Evert Hoogers 09:24

Yeah, wow, that’s really interesting. And it convinced Jean-Claude, throughout his years as president of the union, to make sure that international solidarity was part of things that were being done in CUPW. It included the work that he did around Chile. So one of the things that happened was that as we went forward, the policies of the union you developed, largely, again, as a result of the work that SACTU had done. We actually had a policy by the mid ‘80s that said the union would support all of the work SACTU had done across the country. Later, after COSATU had developed, the policy that had begun with SACTU became a policy about labour – internationalism. The need to understand that what was happening around the world was based on the growing globalization of capital, and that our international work was going to be based on that understanding.

Doug Miller 10:41

And it was a time of rising neoliberalism. So the union was under as much attack as South Africa was facing as problems with apartheid.

Evert Hoogers 10:52

Oh, yes. I think you could say, it assisted us in getting to a better understanding of how neoliberalism was evolving, because SACTU also insisted that the issue of apartheid was not just a matter of racism, it was also a matter of capitalism. And it was the intersection of those two issues that made it important for the trade union movement to internationally work against apartheid.

Doug Miller 11:33

Tremendous. The comparison with the struggle in South Africa was very, very difficult. And I remember those [years] you were almost always on the leading edge of the public service struggles and pushback by management. So you guys lead the struggle on all fronts. Jane, where should we go from here?

Jane Armstrong 12:01

I’m just wondering, in terms of your recall, it’s similar to most of us, a bit fuzzy. We had to tweak each other’s memories. And I’m wondering if you remember, in 1986, we called for a national week of action across the country by union locals. Do you remember any of that?

Evert Hoogers 12:29

I remember that very well, because we had a discussion about that in our local executive. We decided that what we would do was ensure that none of the mail in the international section of the post office would get out there for one day. And that involved a considerable amount of argument, because we had to convince people that it was worthwhile facing the prospect of discipline to do that, to express the way in which the union was committed to the issue of anti-apartheid.

And the surprising thing was that it was successful. There was no discipline. There was never an attempt to try to suspend anybody. I think there was some recognition that probably wouldn’t have been a very, very good PR move by postal management. Then, I remember as well, there was I think, in the same week – we were all out on the docks when a boat from South Africa was coming to Vancouver, and I guess it was the (International Longshore and Warehouse Union) ILWU organized to ensure that ship did not get unloaded.

Doug Miller 14:01

ILWU is the International Longshore Workers Union Yes. Okay. Well that’s amazing. Did it dock in the end or was it just held up for a while?

Evert Hoogers 14:14

It docked but there was nothing coming off.

Doug Miller 14:20

It had kind of a useless trip. Oh, yeah. So that’s 1986 and you are still out in Vancouver as a local president.

Ken Luckhardt 14:33

Well, since we’re talking about the full relationship between CUPW and SACTU one other story I want to have on record goes back to the one of the other trips Zola made, whether it was ‘81 or ‘83, I’m not quite sure. But in Ottawa, the postal workers had decided in good political fashion to celebrate May Day, which as we all know, is not particularly popular in the history of the Canadian labour movement since the Cold War. So anyway, the postal workers had planned a big event. And I don’t know whether it was nationally derived or locally derived. But anyway, Zola was with us in Ottawa at that time. And the mistake that was made by the local organizers is that after a rally, they opened the bar an hour earlier before the speakers were to speak. So given it was a new spring event, after your typical Canadian winter, people hadn’t seen each other. It was a pretty rowdy event. The first hour, people were allowed to drink.

So then they began to introduce the speakers. Jean-Claude is smart, so he knew that that was not the time to speak. So he passed on his opportunity to speak; he would speak later. So whether the next speaker was to be Allan Campbell, whom you may not know about. Campbell was kind of the Tommy McGrath in central Canada. He was well respected by labour as being a very left-leaning leaning leadership. And his partner, his wife Jeanne Campbell, was an activist within CUPW. So he was called upon to speak. And the crowd wouldn’t be quiet. Now he gave up after plenty of efforts to get their attention.

So guess who’s the next speaker? Zola? Well, we all know him. So Zola is listening to this rowdy crowd, and he also doesn’t like drinking as well as smoking. It’s not like he was caught in his own contradiction. So I’ll never forget this. He stood there in front of this crowd. It was noisy with a microphone in front of him. And he simply said, “I will not speak.” Nobody heard him. He just kept repeating that line till eventually, there was a little bit of a silence in the crowd. And he was still saying,” I will not speak.” And he eventually finished the sentence, “I will not speak until you respect me.”

And he gave his talk. It’s one of those moments in history that you were part of, you never forget. The silence was as loud as the noise had been. And it was an incredible relationship between a leader from South Africa in the rank and file in Canada. So that’s a story I wanted on the record, because it’s one of the things that I remember very distinctly from my work.

Evert Hoogers 17:33

I hadn’t heard that story.

Doug Miller 17:34

I say, That’s a good one, that’s for sure. And it’s a tribute to Zola’s character and charisma that he could pull it off. The other thing Ken, earlier, you had made a very strong point about public sector workers versus private sector workers.

Ken Luckhardt

But what I wanted to say is that we who did the work for SACTU in Canada, often give the CAW most of the credit for the work that was done, the depth of the work. I think we have to also acknowledge the CUPW from the beginning, from those early meetings with the leadership in Ottawa, and the locals – like everything that was with SACTU for as long as any other union, regional education programs, strike fund contributions, boycotting. As you said in the ‘86 week of action CUPW deserves the same credit. CUPW gave us office space in Toronto.

Doug Miller 18:35

Point well made.

Ken Luckhardt

We had a fire in our first location, probably set by the landlord. We couldn’t prove that, but anyway, we were then offered space in the local CUPW office, just up the street on Broadview, and we appreciated that it was at a very minimal charge. And we then moved up the street and that was our base for the rest of the time.

Evert Hoogers 19:04

The fact that CUPW had given space to SACTU had, I think, an important effect on the rest of the company because it meant that was a definite indication of how serious the commitment of the CUPW’s Toronto local was. I think Eric DePoe was the president at that time. That certainly affected us as well, since Toronto has provided space for SACTU work, that means that they’re serious about supporting SACTU.

Jane Armstrong 19:48

Just one other event in 1986. And I don’t know whether you recall this, but not long after the week of action the Canadian Labour Congress convention happened. I think it was late April, early May. And there was a significant amount of organizing across the country by many unions to send in resolutions. As I recall, you know, there were close to 100 resolutions. And there was a speech by Jay Naidoo, who was the leader of COSATU (Confederation of South African Trade Unions). COSATU had been recently formed. But also in that spring had signed – a memorandum isn’t quite the right term, but a joint declaration – from COSATU and SACTU and ANC (African National Congress) before Naidoo came to the CLC convention, just a couple of weeks before. And I’m wondering, do you remember that CLC convention, because it was quite a watershed?

Evert Hoogers 20:59

It certainly was. And I do remember that very well. I think that one of the interesting background things to this is that, yes, there was a speech by Jay Naidoo. But that was over the objections of the CLC leadership, or at least the International Affairs Department. And in fact, the convention began to chant at a certain point that they wanted Jay Naidoo to speak, they brought him over from South Africa. And now he was supposed to sit down? Now, while other representatives from Denmark, Sweden, and Germany talked about their important international work, Jay Naidoo was supposed to sit there and not say anything. But this did not go over well with the delegates that were elected to the CLC convention. And that’s one of the things that I remember most about it was how the pressure mounted and, eventually, the CLC leadership had to give in and give Naidoo the opportunity to speak.

Doug Miller 22:06

My goodness gracious, okay. This is unbelievable, that international affairs department.

Ken Luckhardt 22:13

But –or that raises also a point I would like to make politically about CUPW, and that is the CUPW didn’t look to Central Labour bodies for its direction. It didn’t worry about whether the CCU unions, the Canadian unions that we have discussed and have interviewed some people who were a part of the CLC. It didn’t look to the ICFTU (International Confederation of Free Trade Unions) in Brussels or Europe for its direction. We didn’t worry about the Cold War and went ahead and organized people and did educational work on the issues of the day, in terms of socialism, capitalism, and the issues that all union should have been focusing on. That’s something I remember so clearly about anytime I went to a CUPW function. I didn’t have to go through the initial preambles. And we didn’t have to do that. I could jump much further, much quicker. Let’s say you, who you were, who you are.

Evert Hoogers 23:07

And one of the things about that convention that Jane was mentioning was how it revealed that there were a whole lot of others, or at least elements of other unions there, that completely agreed with us. And that was absolutely inappropriate. The position that was being taken by the International Affairs Committee –not the committee, the department. And I think it reflected something that had been going on for quite some time. It just sort of blew up at the convention, but a lot of this dissatisfaction that had been developing for quite some time. Not just CUPW but from other unions, as well, with the misdirection by John Harker. Yeah. So, that was an important thing that happened. I think it was important as well that for the CLC, in respect to what happened as a result of that, there was a growing understanding that it developed, particularly the necessity of actually developing real ties with workers in countries that are not simply some kind of condescending, “We’ll give you some money. And we’ll talk about how good we are in dealing with international crises.”

Doug Miller 24:55

Could we do a sort of reflecting back? Now, were there any parallels with how the union was also dealing with gender issues, environmental issues, indigenous issues? anti-racism, etc., here in Canada?

Evert Hoogers 25:13

Yes. I think all of those things are always, in some way, related. As I mentioned earlier, that was one of the clear messages that we were getting from the SACTU Solidarity Committee, that race and capitalism intersected in the issue of apartheid. And I believe that that is also the same kind of motivation that gave rise to the work that was being done, particularly by a growing number of women activist unionists, to push for more equity, to push for a union that embraced equity and diversity. That’s still going on. But yes, I think that all of those things are related and are what give rise to a healthy union movement, if they’re accepted as part of how a union grows.

Doug Miller 26:19

And you talk so freely about passing resolutions, and so on, but I and education [??], but I understand the union work very well. And sometimes this is a lot more work than just simply passing a resolution. You’ve got to have sessions and education. Could you describe a little bit of that kind of work that you and your union got involved in? What are the steps?

Evert Hoogers 26:47

Absolutely right. The process was somewhat different at the beginning and, early in the ‘80s, we were able to occasionally have regional conferences, where we would get together with other activists from other locals. And then, of course, later on, in the ‘90s, we followed the direction of CAW and were able to get our version of their PEL (Paid educational leave negotiated in contracts with employers) established, and made considerable improvement in our ability to get education around a whole series of issues that confronted the union.

Doug Miller 27:37

Good. What other links would you have had? Obviously, unions have union links and conventions and labour congresses, and so on. Did you have any other links with groups other than the unions, churches, for instance, or the NGO world?

Evert Hoogers 27:53

Well, during the time that I was the union local president what happened was something called the emergence of the solidarity coalition. And Operation Solidarity, which was the result of, I guess we could say now, we used to call it, I think, supply side economics. But it was under the Social Credit regime of Premier Bill Bennett. He attempted to – or in fact, did introduce – the first full run through of neoliberal policies, economic policies in British Columbia. There was a response, a big response, from the labour movement and from the community.

I’m not going to go into all of the details of that, but it certainly brought together, at least in the initial stages, the best impulses that you can imagine from trade unionists throughout the province. And at that point, the ability to work with women’s organizations, with indigenous organizations, anti-racist organizations, because there was a common program that people understood was important.

It didn’t quite end on a positive note. It was undercut by the leadership of the largest unions in British Columbia. And, unfortunately, the fact that it ended that way, sort of destroyed a lot of good work that they’d done originally, but it gave us the understanding of what was possible in order to bring about unity and unified action around real issues.

Doug Miller 29:44

Wow. Ken, sure, please.

Ken Luckhardt 29:46

I don’t want to talk too much, but I mean, Evert’s going to be modest, but we should also add that after Evert came to Toronto, to Ottawa he came on staff as a national rep –, and became, ultimately, the head of the Social Justice Program at CUPW. So in answer to a previous question you raised about connections, I had the privilege of working with Evert when I was with the social justice fund of the CAW. In areas like Colombia, the issue there wasn’t any racism as much as murder of trade unionists. This predictable murder of trade unionists. More workers were killed in Colombia than in every other country combined, every year since 1990. So we worked together and talked together about how unions in Canada could give meaningful solidarity to the Colombian working class. But beyond that, East Timor. Postal workers took on the East Timor issue like no other union. And that was under the direction of their international program, which Evert headed up at CUPW. I just want that to be properly acknowledged.

Evert Hoogers 30:53

I would describe my role as being a coordinator rather than being the head of it. It was the result of a lot of very cooperative action from other militants within CUPW. And in response to hearing your comments about Colombia, one of the things that I think was really a reflection of how important that initial work that SACTU had done was what we were able to do around building solidarity in Colombia among public sector workers. In fact, we were able to bring all of the four major public sector unions together, to have a worker-to-worker solidarity movement that included the public sector and those elements in the private sector that were insisting that there shouldn’t be public sector workers in Colombia. And that still goes on. It’s an extremely long-lived program. It was called defending social, defending public sector workers.

Evert Hoogers 32:12

I’m trying to remember what the name of it was, the solidarity?? Colombia, and Canadian Workers on the Front Lines: Defending Public Services: Canadian and Colombian workers on the front lines. It is still in operation. And I’m thinking that there are new possibilities, given what’s going on in Colombia right now. With the election there may be new possibilities for that program that can be very effective.

Doug Miller 32:42

And, and in a sense, you give credit to SACTU Solidarity for being a bit of a role model here, is it?

Evert Hoogers 32:49

Yes, no question about it.

Doug Miller 32:51

Can you just elaborate that a little bit?

Evert Hoogers 32:55

As I think I mentioned earlier, there was a lot of sense – back before the SACTU Solidarity Committee, of there being no concern about international issues, about what was happening to workers in other parts of the world. But, just like with anti-apartheid, in our case we had a policy against apartheid. But nothing that said what we could do to really make a difference, to join forces with workers in South Africa. That was the huge–one of the huge – insights that was given as a result of the work on the SACTU Solidarity Committee, and that has been a key part of our international work ever since. Thank you. Jane, please.

Jane Armstrong 33:52

Just a couple of things. That same convention, in 1986, was part of the watershed moment, as was voting against the paper that was presented by the CLC International Affairs Department. There was a standing vote. And to the amazement, I’m sure, of the International Affairs Department and probably a number of others, the vote was successful in defeating the paper and sending it back. And this happened partially because of its failure to recognize SACTU and also its failure to recognize the leading trade unions in Nicaragua and other struggles, like Chile. And, as I understand it, thereafter the CLC International Affairs Department never really recovered. And far more than just CUPW began to determine their own way of international internationalism and international solidarity, rather than the reliance on the CLC International Affairs Department. That was one. And I wondered if you recall any other actions, either on the docks or challenging South African products, liquor stores or grocery stores – any of those kinds of memories?

Evert Hoogers 35:37

I do remember, in particular, two activists going into a liquor store, and very ceremoniously smashing the bottles – on the floor – of South African wine. It got a fair amount of press coverage as a result of it and a fair amount of criticism as well because they hadn’t really tried to organize anything around it in a way that would have gained more support and people knowing that this was something that could be done. I can’t remember any specific issues with grocery stores. But I’m sure there was. I’m sure there was things going on at that point, as well.

And just on your comment about the International Affairs Department, yes, you’re right. It was that convention that broke the back of the control of the International Affairs Department. And people, as I say, like White were coming up, who were much more prepared to look at the importance of integrating – really integrating – an international perspective to do with the CLC. And it tells me something really important about being part of the CLC, that even though it can be extremely frustrating – to have to deal from time to time with the mis-leadership of the elite union leaders – the CLC also is made up of unions and union members.

And every once in a while, something happens, ensures that they can show that they have a considerable amount of influence in what happens and gives me the impression that it’s what is possible in the future. And I think I mean, I’m reasonably disappointed in what’s been happening in the labour movement to the CLC in the last few years. But I do think that it’s really important to stick in there and make sure that we do what is necessary to organize on the ground with workers who happen to be represented by unions who are part of the CLC.

Ken Luckhardt 38:08

Also, to Jane’s point, the CLC International Department lost such credibility that they had to go outside of organized labour to find an NGO person who had experience in working in Southern Africa called Paul Puritt to take over a lot of the responsibilities for the Southern African connections made by the CLC. He brought with him the anti-Communist politics of a group called TCLSAC (Toronto Committee for the Liberation of Southern Africa) in Toronto. So there were consequences from having defeated John Harker and his ICFTU approach. But nonetheless, we had to deal with that as well.

Doug Miller 38:42

And this ties in a little bit with the question I was going to ask or raise for discussion, and that is about group effort. It’s really impressive the kinds of things that the unions were doing and the amount of education and the impact they had. And yet there’s so little mention of that history in the common monologue that goes on out there about the dominant dialogue, as they call it. What did you think? Do you think you made an impact? Why is it not talked about?

Evert Hoogers 39:21

Oh, that’s a difficult question. We could spend a lot of time on the question of why these issues aren’t front and centre in the discussions about trade unions. I’m not really the person that should answer the question of whether I made an impact. I leave that to others. To sort of comment on that. I think that, you know, we live in a world where it can be difficult for trade unions, particularly for trade unionists, to talk about the relationship of trade unionism to the dominant political and economic system that exists in the world. So it’s not a surprise to me that that’s suppressed. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t continue to do what’s necessary to do to confirm that.

Doug Miller 40:20

All I know, I’m a very glass half full kind of guy. And I’m going to keep going. But it’s been an interesting aspect of this work, that these are stories that haven’t been told, and that we’re the ones doing it, even in our antiquity.

Evert Hoogers 40:40

Just to sort of underscore that, my union [CUPW] has also now embarked on the oral history project. It is being organized by Michel Lastoff (?) a very well known videographer and a progressive, as well. So I’ve just spent eight hours two weeks ago, talking generally about what life was like, as a trade unionist all the way from when I started to when I retired. And there was a whole series of other people that were being interviewed at the same time.

Doug Miller 41:22

That’s fantastic. Jane, you have a pitch about paraphernalia and memory, memorabilia and all of that.

Jane Armstrong 41:30

Yes, our first deposit to Library and Archives Canada included those orange and black newsletters that everybody would recognize in their mail. We have found almost all maybe all of them by now, both English and French, as well as buttons, posters – those we used to call the banners – and T-shirts that we sold across the country, and pins to raise the money that ran the office because all the strike fund money went overseas to SACTU and so we had to find ways to keep, you know, buying paper, etc. But one of the things that we’re trying to track down as an aid to future researchers, educators is where – archives in particular – local union newspapers might be. So do you have any idea, for example, where CUPW’s Vancouver local newspaper might be stored? Because that’s where we’re finding not only articles but also photographs of guests who came to speak at local union meetings, etc.? Do you have any idea where those might be stored?

Evert Hoogers 43:08

Well, some of them are actually at the national office, but only up to a certain date. Some of them will still be back in Vancouver. The archives at the national office are in flux at the moment. The National Union decided to actually hire someone who knows what they’re doing with respect to archives. And that should naturally assist us, but it means that things are very much in disarray for at least another six months. I think probably in Vancouver, there’s probably some stuff from the 1980s that exists because we don’t have that national office staff. What I might do when I’m out there’s find out from the local whether they have boxes that they’ve stored away somewhere. The 1980s material might be some stuff in there.

Doug Miller 44:09

Well, that’d be wonderful. That’d be wonderful. It’s all good grist for the mill here and brings out the struggle in a very real way when we can get a handle on these, even resolutions in union minutes that favour these kinds of things, that gives reality to this solidarity in essence. I guess we’re getting close to the finale, folks. Any last questions? Ken, Jane, Evert? Please

Evert Hoogers 44:39

Just to thank everyone for his years of work on behalf of workers all over the world, to South Africa, but in Canada to have a real local leader who became a national figure. Well, thanks goes back to you folks as well. The inspiration that you created made it so much easier to do our work in office.

Doug Miller 45:09

And for me, it’s been a real honour and privilege to talk to so many people that were involved in such an important way. So I thank you again for your participation. And I wish you a good day. Thank you. It’s been great. Take care. Thanks, Evert.