John Clarke

DOUG MILLER 00:00

Me, there, we all, so good morning, John Clarke in Toronto I believe.

JOHN CLARKE 00:09

that's correct. Yes,

DOUG MILLER 00:10

and Jane, and Jane Armstrong, and Ken Luckhardt, also in Toronto. We're here to have an interview with John about his role in the labour movement and the organizing around the workers and unemployed workers issues during the 70s for this with relation to the SACTU Solidarity Committee, we're collecting this as a historical archive for deposit in the Library and Archives Canada, actually, so you're aware of the consent form and how we are going to use this for public education and make it available to researchers and so on,

JOHN CLARKE 00:47

That's correct. Yes, I agree to the terms. I certainly do. Yes.

DOUG MILLER 00:51

Okay. Thank you so much. So, John, the obvious starter question is, could you just give us some background, like where you come from and how you came to be involved in activist labour and anti-apartheid kind of issues.

JOHN CLARKE 01:08

Yes, well, I was raised in London, England, and I came to Canada in the, in the later part of the 70s and set up in London, Ontario. I was, faced various challenges in terms of unemployment, and finally found myself a job working in the Westinghouse plant in London, where I was a member of UE Local 546 and I was a shop steward and union activist, and that's where I had a level of involvement with the SACTU Solidarity Committee initially. And then in 1982 I was laid off from my job and got involved in an initiative to form initially an unemployed committee within the local that I was part of, but then that became an initiative to form a city-wide organization of the unemployed, so I, and I remained in that in that kind of role right through until recently with the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty based in Toronto, and in my capacity as an unemployed organizer, I also had some dealings with the with the SACTU Solidarity Committee, and our organization was supportive of that committee's work.

DOUG MILLER 02:37

So do you feel any time that you could remember that you became really aware of, for instance, apartheid, and how important the struggle in South Africa was for the kind of struggles workers were going through here?

JOHN CLARKE 02:53

Yes, I mean, I think you had it was clear that internationally apartheid South Africa was something of a bulwark of reaction internationally, and very much part of the strategy of global capitalism at that time, a very ugly legacy of the whole process of colonialism and imperialism in Africa, and that a very vital struggle was taking place, but that, moreover, there was that was interwoven with the class struggle in in South Africa to an enormous degree. So, what appealed to me about the SACTU Solidarity Committee was that it embraced internationalism very much from an activist working-class perspective that I thought was so valuable, so the struggle against apartheid, I think, was in many ways, and the international movement of solidarity that arose around it was very much a cutting edge of international activism and struggle at that particular point.

DOUG MILLER 04:01

Wow, fantastic. UE is United Electrical Workers. Were they, were they an easy union to sell the anti-apartheid message in?

JOHN CLARKE 04:12

Yes, I think there was some more higher level of immunity to Cold War poison in UE than –

DOUG MILLER 04:22

Very delicately said

JOHN CLARKE 04:23

In many, in many unions at the time, so there's no question that I mean, UE generally was, I think, bound to be supportive of the work of the SACTU Solidarity Committee from a clear-cut ideological position, the local in London was, I mean, not, not perhaps as directly connected to initially, but, but it was precisely the work of the committee that, that really, that really brought the local into being much more, were actively supportive.

I do remember an occasion when I ended up, this is one of the first times I met Ken, but I do remember being in a hotel in Toronto somewhere, and a speaker from South Africa was giving a little sort of talk to people that have been invited to the hotel room, and I went with the then president of the of the local in London, who didn't have a great background in activism and didn't have a great understanding actually of the of the issues, and I remember this meeting for him was a kind of, was a kind of an epiphany, you might say. I mean, he was, he was so affected by, and so moved by what the brother from South Africa had to say, and the struggle, and the enormous injustices that were being challenged, that it, it was clearly a defining moment in his life as a trade union activist, so I don't think we can understate the degree to which that element of anti-racist struggle and international solidarity was had inspired the work of Canadian trade unionists.

DOUG MILLER 06:20

Wow, that's amazing. So your union, would they have gotten involved with the strike fund as well? And how did the union manifest this support?

JOHN CLARKE 06:33

Yes, I mean clearly in terms of, you know, hosting meetings, providing space, providing resources, the support was there. I mean, I, I refreshed my memory by going over the list of the list of those who had financially supported the work of the SACTU Solidarity Committee, and certainly our local, our UE local in London, along with another number of other locals, were certainly supportive, and I must say, with some small level of pride, the London Union of Unemployed Workers, when it was formed, which was not exactly a resource-rich organization, also made modest donations to the SACTU Solidarity Committee. So, yes, that support was clearly there.

DOUG MILLER 07:22

Ken, Jane, do you have any, any questions?

KEN LUCKHARDT 07:26

I’ll just jump in a little bit. Just a brief reminder. Meeting John in London, I want to refer to the Labour Council, which are very supportive in London, supportive of SACTU, and we did on many occasions have South Africans, as John said, passed through the country giving talks across the country, mobilizing support, and I remember one meeting in London, Labour Council, and I'm sure, not sure that you were there, John, perhaps you were. It was an example of the Cold War politics of the day. We had this SACTU Strike Fund, and we were getting tremendous support from unions, public and private sector, all across the country, and this was very upsetting to the CLC International Affairs Department, who would have wanted the money to go to the CLC.

And so when Zola Zembe, in one of his trips to Canada, had made the presentation and the argument for the SACTU Strike Fund, a very progressive brother by the name of Al Campbell in London made a recommendation, a motion at the Labour Council, that Labour Council contribute financially to the SACTU Strike Fund, fully understanding that was for underground work and would not get a receipt, and the usual kinds of niceties of the labour movement.

So Zola made the argument, Al Campbell made the motion, CLC rep present at the meeting intervened and said that he preferred he would have preferred on behalf of his organization that the money go to Ottawa for further disbursement to South African workers. Zola then got the microphone back and said that, sorry, I think I lost my picture here, so got the microphone back and said, “yeah, you could make, you could give the money to the CLC, you could also go to Lake Ontario and just throw in the water, that would serve the same purpose”. So that was a sharp definition of the politics of the day, the CLC and the Cold War politics, directed by the ICFTU in Brussels versus the mobilizing that is reflective of the kind of work that John has done. So I remember that meeting, and I'm not sure if you were there, John, but that was one of my memorable events in London.

JOHN CLARKE 09:33

Yes, I was there, and I do, I do recall it, and I remember the role of Al Campbell, who was in many, in many ways, Al was our played a remarkable role, and yes, I think that really did bring it home, is that, is that by taking up a struggle for working-class international solidarity that embraced the, the struggle, end of class struggle in South Africa, that's where it was playing such an important role, because we still were dealing with, as you say, the Cold War at that particular point, and we had a situation where the CLC veered towards instinctively almost lining up with the foreign affairs priorities of the Canadian state, let's say, rather than remembering its duty to the international working class.

And that was a moment where that was sharply where that was sharply challenged, and the London District Labour Council did play a supporting role in the face of that rather I'll be diplomatic and say stodgy bureaucratic obstruction, and it was very, very indicative, and in my mind it's entirely interwoven with the struggle that we were taking up to form an effective organization of the unemployed, which was similarly regarded with distaste and obstruction, and the two things sort of came together at that particular time. We were both, in our own ways, in our own context, trying to, trying to really take up an approach of genuine class struggle, as opposed to bureaucratic accommodation and foot dragging, and it was a moment where, where that approach got pushed back by the really solid working-class sentiments that were there in that room.

DOUG MILLER 11:24

Wow, amazing. And can you just take us for a start? I'm also very interested in some of these names that we may not probably get to meet, like I'll, I'm sorry..

JOHN CLARKE 11:35

Al Campbell.

DOUG MILLER 11:37

Yeah, could you just tell us a little bit about him that would make him an important actor in this kind of struggle.

JOHN CLARKE 11:42

Yeah, Al was at the time the Vice President of the London District Service Workers Local 220 which was part of SEIU, very, very progressive local that in its own right played a very, very important role in supporting the SACTU Solidarity Committee, but Al was a truly remarkable figure. He was from Cape Breton. His partner, Jeannie Campbell, was the, was the president of the, of the postal workers local in Toronto, and both of them were really a thoroughly inspiring institution on the on for the left in London, Ontario at that time.

And Al had had been connected, I mean, he was, he was an older man at that time, so he went, had memories of struggle going back to the to the Great Depression, and all the struggles that have taken place in Cape Breton, and such like, and so within that local, which represented primarily hospital workers, he played, he played an incredible role, but he was one of those people who, who has a good, solid sense of militant working-class politics on the domestic front, but who link that to a deep-seated sense of internationalism.

So, so for Al Campbell to not speak out against the apartheid regime in South Africa would have been inconceivable. It was absolutely inevitable that he would be there ready to challenge the bureaucratic stodginess and the foot dragging and giving a giving a clear example as we got organized with an initiative to form an unemployed union. Similarly, Al Campbell was, probably his contributions in terms of removing impediments, ensuring that there was genuine support put forward, and such like, was absolutely outstanding. He's one of the people who I always look to as a great example of a solid working-class activist.

DOUG MILLER 13:56

And I'm also fascinated by the, the unemployed workers movement that you got involved with, and that they people who had such serious concerns here in Canada about their own welfare would be able to take on that international role so willingly.

JOHN CLARKE 14:13

Yes, I mean, I think we brought around us people who wanted to fight back. I mean, the UUW was formed in the context of one of the 1980s recession, so –

DOUG MILLER 14:31

That's –

JOHN CLARKE 14:33

Under, union of unemployed workers.

DOUG MILLER 14:35

Excuse me. Okay. Thank you.

JOHN CLARKE 14:36

Was formed in the context of the international recession that was hitting hard at that time, so it meant that I mean, generally across the board, there was lots of job loss, but there was lots of job loss within the unionized, within the unionized companies as well, and so what we found was that it brought a lot of the people that were that were thrown into that situation were often activists prior to that situation, but if they weren't, they the experience of being hit by unemployment at that particular period, having to turn to the unemployment insurance system, and then to the even more dreadful welfare system that tended to radicalize people, and our organization offered a perspective, and a fighting perspective.

So, again, I mean, it didn't seem to us a kind of a, I mean, obviously you fight where you are, and you focus on the struggles in your own community, but to give the best support we could to the struggle of South African workers seemed to us an extension of the whole perspective and the whole fight that we were taking up and an absolutely necessary one, and I've always been struck by that. I mean, you get someone like Zola Zembe, that was referred to, that appears before a group of workers here in Canada, and speaks with conviction and understanding of a struggle like the struggle in South Africa, and the way that resonates with people, the sort of the class instincts and the fighting spirit that that kind of thing brings out just can't be underestimated, that the importance of international solidarity, of which the SACTU Solidarity Committee is one example, but the importance of that kind of really grounded practical international solidarity, and the implications for the kind of struggles you can take up in your own, in your own community, in your own workplaces. I don't think can be underestimated.

DOUG MILLER 16:42

That's fantastic, John. Thank you. My goodness, Jane, Ken,

KEN LUCKHARDT 16:50

I'm glad you mentioned Local 220 of SEIU, which we probably wouldn't otherwise put at the top of the list of progressive unions in that day, but the local in London was unique, not only because of Al Campbell, because many of the staff people, older comrades, had been to South Africa as part of the Canadian Navy. They had seen Durban, they had seen apartheid in their own with their own eyes during the, World War Two. So, I remember having no difficulty whatsoever convincing local 220 executive and ultimately membership that they should be on side of the SACTU. They work very carefully around the whole OMERS pension plan, trying to get divestment and disinvestment strategies working on that front, and they're very good on identifying commodities, South African commodities in SEIU workplaces. So I'm glad you mentioned Local 220 because they definitely deserve a lot of credit in those days. John asking, in particular, the President, I believe.

JOHN CLARKE 17:51

Yes, absolutely, yes, yeah. That was the striking thing about the Local was the breadth of its connections in terms of an influence in terms of struggles, very practical, direct struggles.

I remember there was a brutal strike by primarily largely Portuguese women who worked, who worked for Canadian Linen in London. A strike that was, I mean, they just worked to crush it, and there was a mobilization that took place, and I remember the role that activists from 220 played in ensuring that those picket lines were strong and that a victory was finally, finally achieved, so they could, they could struggle, you know, on the most practical and immediate trade union question, and yet have enormous interest in helping the unemployed organized, mobilizing on issues of international solidarity, but not in an abstract way, but as you say, in ways that where they would actually look for the connections, the points of the choke points, as they say, the points at which they could have an effect, and where solidarity could be expressed in concrete and important ways.

Because I think that kind of, that kind of an initiative, I think we still, and I mean, by raising money and awareness and acting to will build practical concrete support for the struggle in South Africa, it pointed to something that's always stood me in good stead, you know, like when, when you get, when workers in another country ask for support, you know, it's standard to sort of say, say the right things, and you know, sort of send a give some token measure of support, but there's, there's so much more we can do if we think it through.

I mean, an example I draw from my own work in the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty is we actually got approached by workers in Sri Lanka who were on strike, and they were on strike against the Bata Shoe Company, and they've been subjected to a brutal attack. So it struck us that Bata has this preposterous shoe museum in Toronto, that's, that's sort of their little show piece. So we did an occupation of the Bata Shoe Museum in solidarity and demanded that they open up negotiations with the workers in Sri Lanka, and it actually, it actually worked because the company was so embarrassed by their, their ridiculous, their ridiculous fluffy show piece thing in Toronto, being challenged in that way.

And I think that's an example of the kind of ways in which we to this day, and that I think in some ways the most important thing to say about the SACTU Solidarity Committee is the foundations that it laid that so much international solidarity work is based on earlier initiatives and based on very specifically the South African struggle, and it applies today, and I think we need to explore it and develop it even more than has happened in the past.

DOUG MILLER 20:57

That's a, that's a fascinating story about how the unemployed can take action on like that, amazing, amazing, and to participate on the labour councils as well. Is this true?

JOHN CLARKE 21:09

Yes. I mean, in truth, when the, when the, the initiative in London, the Union of Unemployed Workers got going was able to rely on the fact that I was still a delegate from UE, so, so, even though I was an unemployed worker, I was still a member of UE and was able to participate on that basis, so there was no official standing for the London Union of Unemployed Workers, but with the support of my own local, I was able to, I was able to sort of play a role of promoting the work of the Union of Unemployed Workers within the within the Labour Council, and the Labour Council was, was I with some reluctance in some quarters, I'll not deny, really was compelled to develop a working relationship, partly compelled on the right and a big section of the Labour Council on the left, with great enthusiasm, giving support to the to the work of the London Union of Unemployed Workers.

DOUG MILLER 22:08

And that carried over. Then I presume, as you've just explained, to the Ontario Coalition Against the Poverty, as well, that when you move to Toronto, and these kind of links with anti-apartheid would have continued even after SACTU, probably, the Solidarity Committee was, was finished.

JOHN CLARKE 22:27

Yes, I mean, continued to maintain, contain, maintain connections in terms of South Africa, yes, with for the duration of the of the struggle against the apartheid regime, and I must say, with poor people who are organizing resistance in South Africa today, in the post-apartheid context, which has its own very severe contradictions, I don't think we can, we can deny for a moment.

And then more broadly, I mean, perhaps one of the greatest contributions in areas where that contribution lives is precisely in the struggle to build Palestine solidarity with the Palestinian struggle, which, which is, which I think is very deserved comparisons are being drawn today with the challenges and the struggles and the injustices that are being confronted today by Palestinians compared to the apartheid in South Africa.

DOUG MILLER 23:31

Have you ever been called on by, for instance, Independent Jewish Voices or those kinds of resistance or support for Palestine, Palestinians and their issues to relate the anti-apartheid struggle to their struggle?

JOHN CLARKE 23:45

No, I can't say that. I can't say that, really. I mean, there's been sort of informal discussions, but I can't say that that really has happened, and I think I think it would be.. I think it'll be a significant political initiative to actually, to actually, I mean, everybody talks about the fact that you know we're, we're, we're confronting a regime that has many of the features of an apartheid regime at the moment, and trying to give solidarity to a vital liberatory struggle that's taking place, and there are real comparisons to be made to the struggle.

In fact, in some ways, I mean, what reminds me of it so much is there was a whole period when challenging South African apartheid was seen as being something that was beyond the pale, that that you didn't want to challenge South African apartheid, you wanted to pretend that it was eventually going to go away because things were to become kinder and gentler, and you didn't want to be disruptive, and all that kind of nonsense, and that's still that's being raised today in that, in that same context. So, I mean, I think there are, so there are really rich lessons that, where we could get beyond just a sort of a vague notion of there are some compelling comparisons, I think they should be fleshed out, and I think they should be really clearly, so that those lessons of that earlier struggle can be applied to in ways that are useful to the struggle that's taking place today.

DOUG MILLER 25:12

Yeah, both Ken and I have been called upon by Independent Jewish Voices to try to help draw those lessons out a little bit in public forum and webinars, and so on. So that's why I was thinking you're a valuable resource. We should get you in there.

JOHN CLARKE 25:28

I’m really glad to hear that. And Independent Jewish Voices are just, I mean, they just done their work on the IHRA definition and other things. It's just been outstanding. They just play an incredible role.

DOUG MILLER 25:40

Excellent, I think I would just take a moment to intervene. Usually I'm just the moderator, but the period from 79, 80 when Thatcher and Reagan came to power was particularly nasty, point with Milton Friedman's neoliberalism and everything, a very nasty point in the social compact that had been made over the years with labour and capital in Canada, and turned things around dramatically, and not far off in the parallels today with the great inequalities that exist in the brutality of the various wars that are being carried out in the name of, wow, you've put it in such a great context, Ken, Jane, what a lovely interview, just absolutely amazing. Do you have you anything to add or ask Jane?

JANE ARMSTRONG 26:36

Just whether you think that coming out of those struggles against apartheid, to what degree do you think it influenced the anti-racism fights that began to emerge to challenge systemic racism, both within the union movement, but also within companies. Do you see any linkage over the decades?

JOHN CLARKE 27:14

Yeah, I think there's an undeniable and enormous, enormous link. I mean, you had in South, you had in South Africa, I mean, such, such an overt and clear-cut system of institutionalized racism that it became, it became, it became a focus, and so by definition people are drawn into that struggle and express support for South African workers, but then they begin to look around and they begin to say, well, “I mean, what's going on there is so glaring and so overt, but perhaps the situation here isn't quite as fundamentally different as we, as we think it is”. Perhaps many of the same elements are in existence, and their existence in terms of how we're dealt with by the police, they're, in terms of, they exist in terms of how we're dealt with by employers, but sadly those tensions are there in our own unions, in our own community organizations as well.

And so and so, by challenging the most glaring form of racism there could possibly be, I think it increased an understanding of the need to challenge racism as a deep injustice that exists not just within a particularly crude manifestation that's set up in her, that's set up in South Africa, but, but, but exists within the whole, the whole edifice of capitalism itself.

DOUG MILLER 28:45

Wow. Well, I guess that would be a similar response if we asked about Indigenous issues and gender issues and environment issues as well.

JOHN CLARKE 28:54

Most certainly.

KEN LUCKHARDT 28:56

John, I know you didn't get your class politics on the boat coming over in late 70s, what's your background back in Britain? You obviously came into Canada with a good sense of the political economy of capitalism.

JOHN CLARKE 29:11

Yeah, yeah, I was –

KEN LUCKHARDT 29:12

That's a big question. You don't have…this is not a biography, but –

JOHN CLARKE 29:16

No, no, not at all. But I mean, I was.. I was only 22 which I, when I came to Canada, which is more than 10 years ago now, and but I think I'd already, I mean, certainly my own life, my own family background, and everything sort of had instilled in me a sense of the some of the class realities of society, but I'd also been active in trade unions and other struggles, and so I, yes, I think it's fair to say that the bulk of my work and development obviously has been carried out in in this country.

Uh, but, but the formative experiences and initial forays took place, took place on the other side of the Atlantic, and they were very, very instrumental, and there is no denying, I think, that I mean, a couple of visitors from, from the UK came over a while ago, and we did a little speaking tour together, and, and they listened to the, they listened to the head of the, the, I forget which one it was at the time, but the head of the Ontario Conservative Party speaking, and this woman said to me, she said, “you know, it's really weird when you can't tell that they're the ruling class from the way they speak”, that sort of deep sense of class is so I think it's, it's again, I mean, this is a class society here, by God, but there's a but there's such a sense of livid sense of class and such a such a sort of sense of triumphalism and arrogance amongst the people at the top in Britain, that it does, it does sort of leave a, it does sort of leave a mark. So I've always felt it was there.

DOUG MILLER 31:08

Wow, I don't know if you have any other last words you'd like to offer around these issues, but

JOHN CLARKE 31:18

I just, just to say, thank you so much for the opportunity. It was incredible to remember some of these things, and I really do think that the point I was making is absolutely fundamental, is that the struggles that took place are like the, you know, the shoulders that we, that we, that we were on, and that's there for us, and that that example of the struggle of the SACTU Solidarity Committee, and the influence that it had, the legacy that remains and still reverberates, is something really impressive, is something really precious.

So I think it's so important that those things are brought together. I mean, I've been involved in unemployed anti-poverty struggles, and you look back at the incredible history that took a struggle that took place, and unfortunately, so much of it has been lost. So much of the incredible struggles that took place at earlier times have only been in the most spotty way documented and recorded. And of course, we live in a society where the working class memory has to actually be fought for, because they're not going to, they're not going to encourage you to establish that record, so to leave that record for others who come afterwards is such an important thing, and this is such a great project, and I'm so proud to have made a little contribution to it.

DOUG MILLER 32:32

Wow, that's wonderful and eloquent. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I don't think there's much to add to this, Ken, Jane rather.

KEN LUCKHARDT 32:43

Thank you, John, for your continuing work. The stuff you do now in retirement is just as important as what you did when you were with OCAP or UE. We all follow your work very closely.

JOHN CLARKE 32:54

Thank you, Ken. Thank you. Thank you.

DOUG MILLER 32:56

Well, I'm going to thank you as well on behalf of what we call here the Canadian Anti-Apartheid Activist History Project, it's largely, as you say, an informal and unwritten history that we're after. The formal one is the triumphal month, triumphalism one that you spoke about, where Canada claims to have liberated Nelson Mandela, etc. etc. When we know that it wasn't the case, so, so I thank you for making it so clear, and well, it's as I said, eloquent. So, thanks again, John. And with that, I'll turn the record off, and we can just.