Episode Transcript

(0:00) Okay, so, when I was studying cinema back during the Jurassic period, one thing was hammered (0:07) into me. Doesn’t matter how good your visuals are, if your audio is terrible, your films are (0:13) unwatchable. But that’s a bit of a reductive rule, isn’t it? Sure, audio is important for those who (0:21) can’t hear—for those who can hear.

Hell, the Odyssey was practically ruined due to the movie (0:27) theater’s terrible sound mixing—but we never question whether or not our audiences can hear. (0:32) We only question based on our narrow and limited perspectives for both culture and our ability. (0:40) I dislike the term.

It’s a weird term. But either way, The Sound of Dogs, opening October 1st till (0:48) the 10th at the Centaur, is about the relationship with not audio, but hearing. Listening and the (0:56) perspective behind it and around it.

Here to talk about it is Jennifer Roberts, the author of the (1:01) piece, Pamela Witcher, the director, and also interpreter Brooke Nance-Cavell. Quick note that (1:08) Pamela will be operating through Brooke, so you’ll be hearing Brooke’s voice providing Pamela’s (1:16) responses. Welcome to Upstage.

(1:19) Hi, thank you for having us.

(1:22) So, I think the first question to ask is, what can the audience expect in both text and experience (1:34) when they’re sharing the space with your work October 1st?

(1:39) Well, it’ll definitely be an experience that I think most audiences will not have had before. (1:47) The show is intended to be accessible to Deaf and hearing audiences on any given night.

(1:55) The actors are a blend of Deaf and hearing artists, and the show is in two languages, (2:03) English and American Sign Language. So, there won’t be any interpreters on stage. (2:09) The show is designed linguistically so that different audiences of different language uses (2:16) can enjoy different parts of the show at any given time, and I just think overall it’s going to be an (2:22) experience that I’m really excited to share and get feedback on after, because it’s our first audience.

(2:31) So, the show itself has a protagonist named Coda, which is fascinating. What does the meaning… (2:40) Actually, wait, I didn’t give a chance for Pamela to voice anything if she’d like to. (2:48) I’m all right for the… Well, perhaps you could say the question again for me, please, Xander.

(2:51) Oh, certainly. To you, what can the audience expect in both, (2:59) via their experience in sharing the space with your work? (3:03) I really agree with what Jennifer said. I think it’s a new production.

(3:08) So, we’re not entirely certain what the audience reaction will be like. We’re very much looking (3:13) forward to beginning the run of the show, and it’s very exciting for us as a team, (3:19) as a creative team, because there are no interpreters on stage, as Jennifer mentioned. (3:26) There’s no translation.

It’s direct. It’s ASL and English simultaneously blended, (3:32) woven together through the piece. So, it’ll be really interesting to see how audiences respond (3:36) to that artistic use of both languages on stage.

So, both people who are fluent in sign language (3:41) and those who aren’t fluent in American Sign Language will be able to access it. So, it’s a (3:45) interesting approach that we’ve taken with this piece. (3:48) So, as I was asking before, the protagonist’s name is Coda.

And I was wondering, what does the (3:57) meaning of the word Coda say about the character? And also, who are they to the two of you? (4:05) Well, when I wrote the play, originally, all of the characters had archetype titles. (4:11) I didn’t name anyone. So, their names are Deaf Boy, Deaf Man, Hearing Teacher, Hearing Woman, (4:21) Hearing Stranger, Deaf Stranger.

So, the titles were all just their archetypes because we didn’t (4:27) know, I didn’t know when I wrote it, how many characters or actors would end up in the final (4:32) draft. So, I started with these general terms. And then, throughout the dramaturgical process, (4:39) narrowed down how many characters would be in the show.

And then, left them at that because (4:44) they were never named throughout the text. I never said anyone’s name. They represented (4:50) many people.

Because whether you’re Deaf, hearing, or speak another language, the themes in the show (4:58) relate across cultures, I would say, not just Deaf and hearing culture. So, I actually didn’t (5:07) intend on the names being publicized. They were just the names of their characters.

And CODA (5:13) is a shorthand term, also an acronym, which stands for Child of Deaf Adult. And it’s just an easy way (5:19) to say, this person has Deaf parents. And the main premise of the show is this character who (5:27) has Deaf parents who’s trying to explain to audiences what her life is like.

And when we (5:35) were publicizing the show and starting to explain the show, we realized, oh, I have to say her name, (5:42) which I never named her. She’s still CODA. So, it’s actually just an acronym and her archetype (5:48) term that has become her name.

But it’s kind of, yeah, that’s just what happened. (5:57) And for you, Pamela? I will leave that question for CODA herself to answer. (6:02) Good answer.

I mean, I love that answer. So, there’s a lot of assumptions about the Deaf (6:11) experience and Deaf culture. What was the, was there like a specific moment that hit you that, (6:21) you know, kind of inspired you that, like, now was the time to tell this story? (6:28) Was this, because I believe this, the story is about interrelationships and the assumptions (6:34) behind, like, that kind of navigate and affect both people close to Deaf loved ones, hearing (6:44) people who are close to Deaf loved ones, as well as the, you know, Deaf loved ones themselves.

(6:52) The show, well, the play started about 10 years ago. I got the idea for a story. I didn’t know (7:00) what it would become.

But the premise of the show started because I was, so my parents are Deaf, (7:05) and I was visiting my parents, going through my mom’s jewelry box, looking at her old (7:11) things and trinkets. And I found a hearing aid, an older hearing aid from the 50s. And I was (7:16) surprised because my parents don’t use hearing aids.

And when I asked my mom about it, she said, (7:21) it was at the time, you know, in the 50s, everyone was mandated to wear these hearing aids, (7:26) whether or not they worked, sign language was banned. And it was believed that if we wore them, (7:31) we could hear. And my mom kept her hearing aid.

And she said, your dad had one too, which I didn’t (7:36) know. So when I asked him, could you ever hear anything with the hearing aid on? He said, (7:42) I could hear a dog sometimes. And I said, could you locate where the dog was? And he said, no, (7:47) I just knew there was a dog somewhere.

And so The Sound of Dogs became this title that floated in (7:53) my mind for a long time, but I didn’t know what the play was yet. So I started documenting stories (8:00) from my life, doing research, and then COVID happened. And it was a time where the councils (8:09) put funding into development.

So we were able to secure funding from Calc and Canada Council (8:15) to do research. And during that process, I did interviews with deaf families, with CODAs, with (8:23) hearing folks as well, read books, consumed art, just really dove into this research phase, (8:32) which included Pamela Witcher and Michelin-Chevrier, who are now the co-directors. But at the time, (8:38) it wasn’t a play yet.

And then throughout the workshop process, I realized, hey, (8:44) these stories aren’t just from my life. These stories relate to all the workshop artists as (8:50) well, which is how this archetype structure really started. So what started as a personal story, (8:57) I realized a lot of these themes from my parents’ generation are also reoccurring today.

It’s this (9:04) cyclical timeline of themes where, yes, progress has happened in many avenues of life, (9:10) but the themes just keep repeating in different ways. So it’s interesting because I think it’s (9:17) always a relevant time to talk about this, but we seem to be in a more, dare I say, open-minded place (9:26) where people are more curious about deaf arts and culture. When I say people, I mean hearing (9:33) audiences seem to be more exposed to deaf arts and culture.

So it all kind of came to fruition (9:39) in quite a natural way over the years where here we are today. But there was nothing in particular (9:47) that triggered the evolution of the show or the timing of when it was released. Just more a (9:53) wonderful, slow growth that came to today.

So when you say that sign language was banned, (10:00) are you referring to the band that Alexander Graham Bell was connected to?

(10:06) I’ll let Pamela answer that question, but I will say for my parents at the time, (10:12) when they went to school, they were not allowed to use sign language and the oral method was the (10:19) preferred enforced approach. But I think Pamela would be better suited to answer this question. (10:25) All right.

So this is something that has gone on for a very long time. Really, when we look back (10:31) at the ancient Greeks, we look at Plato, Aristotle, we can see documentation in their writings (10:40) about the general commentary about deaf people, about signing with hands, about not being able (10:45) to speak vocally, meaning that someone was not intelligent. So we already have that stigma, (10:51) that social stigma.

And of course, our society has many, many different stigmas, many different (10:55) forms of oppression. That’s not only against deaf people. We’re very well aware of that, (10:59) whether it’s racism, sexism, sexual discrimination.

Of course, in history, (11:06) we have so many different forms that that takes. But in relevance to this, we see that for deaf (11:12) people were very much judged as not being intelligent by hearing people. So we have (11:17) that social divide.

And that’s something that continues in different waves throughout history. (11:22) And of course, at some periods, in some places, sign language flourished. For example, (11:28) we look at Martha’s Vineyard, the entire island, whether someone was hearing or deaf, (11:33) people signed.

It was a common language throughout the entire community. So we can see that in (11:39) different periods, that was the status quo in different communities. So now we can also see (11:47) that in certain times, people were, deaf children were educated, for example, through religious (11:51) education, through sign language.

So in history, there’s always different periods, you know, (11:57) in the 1700s and the 1800s, where sign language was much larger. Then in the 1880, there was the (12:04) Milan Conference. And of course, that is in parallel, as you said, with Alexander Graham Bell’s (12:08) time.

Now that conference had majority hearing people made two or three deaf people when they (12:14) banned sign language in schools. So the entire education system had been developed, of course, (12:21) through contact, people were geographically close, then were able to develop sign language (12:26) to communicate with each other. And so different countries, different areas developed their own (12:30) sign languages, just very much in parallel to how spoken languages have developed in many different (12:36) areas of the world.

But at that point, the idea was to isolate deaf people. So when you really think (12:42) about why the reasoning behind that, it’s so much about the importance and the dominance, (12:48) superiority of hearing and speaking vocally. And that’s something that we see through many (12:53) generations of history and still today in 2026.

So to answer your question, yes, it is related (13:00) to that. And it is very much a theme that is some of the underlying message of The Sound of Dogs is (13:06) about how sign languages are equivalent to spoken languages. So I suppose that, you know, finding (13:14) that hearing aid really kind of not only was a spark to discuss, you know, this kind of history, (13:24) or at least your parents position in it, but the prevalence of technology has always kind of been, (13:32) that has always kind of had this presence when it came to the identity of deaf persons and how they (13:40) were either forced to navigate or that they were made to navigate in social settings up until and (13:47) even after the 60s when they started to, you know, lift this insane ban off for ASL.

(13:57) Yeah, it’s interesting. Technology, it’s such a broad term that can cover so many things. And (14:04) deaf and hearing people have wonderful and negative experiences with technology.

(14:10) For my parents, the wonders of it in terms of access were closed captioning, (14:17) subtitles, what bell relay service, and then now video relay service, which has been around for 10 (14:24) years in Canada. And these are wonderful advances in technology. To me, access is choice.

It’s (14:33) independence. It’s being able to do what you want to do throughout your day in your chosen (14:39) language. That’s access.

And some technology really allows for people to make their own choices, (14:44) to live independently. And then there’s technology where things are enforced upon people. (14:51) For the Sound of Dogs, we have no negative stance on if you want to wear a hearing aid, (14:56) if you want to get a cochlear implant, if you just want to sign and not use any hearing devices, (15:01) you do you.

Live your best life. We celebrate all forms of deaf and hearing identity. It’s about (15:09) choice.

When people are enforced to do something, as in, hey, this will fix the problem that you (15:16) have. This is the part where I think, at least for the Sound of Dogs, where we touch on that (15:24) technology is technology. It’s a device.

It’s a tool. People can use it or not. But this idea (15:30) that there are rules, enforced behavior, the banning of sign language, why? Why are we afraid (15:38) of sign language? Why couldn’t my parents use it? What is it that we really are just trying to get (15:46) rid of? So, these are the themes that are interesting to me.

Because from my upbringing, (15:51) we celebrated all forms of identity, all forms of hearing levels. And it didn’t matter what hearing (15:57) device may or may not have been assisted on your head. But it’s interesting how their teachers (16:04) sure did care growing up, how government officials sure did care and why.

I’ll pass it off to Pamela (16:11) to speak to this more, but that’s more where the Sound of Dogs entered the dialogue in terms of (16:18) technology.

Could you repeat the question again, Xander? Sorry. I was so interested in listening (16:25) to Jen.

Now, I want to go back to the original question. Unfortunately, we are coming up on time. (16:30) So, I would just like to ask a different question, actually, steering it more directly. (16:34) My fault, Pamela. Steering it more directly into the Sound of Dogs, which is, if you had a hope (16:42) for what the audience would walk away with after the curtain falls, what would that hope be?

(16:48) Pamela, I’ll let you go ahead and take this, Jen. I want the audience, when they leave, (16:52) to never forget this show.

I want them to be touched. I want them to leave and keep thinking (16:58) about it, keep feeling about it. And I wanted to make them more open-minded, more open-hearted.

(17:04) Jennifer, what would you say? I hope people laugh a lot. I realized during my conversation that (17:11) it sounds a little heavy, but it is a comedy. It’s a dark comedy, but it’s how I think the (17:17) best ways to experience history and to question why we behave the way we do is to laugh and look (17:25) at ourselves and have a little satire, a little dark humor, and just poke fun at things.

And that’s (17:31) what we do. So, I hope people laugh and reflect in all the things that Pamela said.

(17:37) Thank you so much, Jennifer, Pamela, and Brooke, for joining us tonight.

(17:42) Thank you for having us. And we look forward to having all the listeners (17:46) come see The Sound of Dogs. If you’d like to join us in the audience, (17:50) please check out Sound of Dogs, which will be opening October 1st to the 10th at Centaur (17:58) Theatre.

More info at centaurtheatre.com forward slash shows forward slash Sound of Dogs. (18:04) And that’s our show.